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Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James: Game Winning Shots

Originally published on 5/3/2011. Stats updated 5/17/2012

The game winning/game tying shot is arguably the most clutch shot in basketball. While any other shot attempt during a game offers a player an opportunity for redemption in the case of failure, the game winning/game tying is the most unforgiving, since unless a player’s team is tied, there are no second chances. Either the player makes the shot and succeeds, or he misses and fails. Its one shot for all the marbles, and the outcome can mean the difference between a win or a loss. And in the playoffs, it becomes even more consequential.

So who would you rather have taking the last shot at the end of a playoff game? Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James?

Earlier in the season, I wrote an article challenging the popular assumption around the NBA that Kobe Bryant should be the unanimous choice to take the final shot in a playoff game. In my article, I cited the NBA’s standard Game Winning/Game Tying Shot Metric used by coaches and GMs throughout the league when scouting opposing teams - shot attempts made with the intent to either win or tie the game within the final 24 seconds, during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points – or in other words, a one-possession game (the concession 2-point basket in which a player’s team is down by 3 points is excluded from this metric). In my analysis, we provided a detailed list of each and every game winning and game tying shot attempt during Kobe Bryant’s playoff career, as validated by game film, play-by-play logs, box scores and recaps. The end result? During his 15 year career, Kobe Bryant is 7/27 or 25.9%:

Year Opponent Game Result Description
1996 Utah Jazz Game 5 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot with 4 seconds left.
1999 San Antonio Spurs Game 2 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot at the end of regulation
2000 Phoenix Suns Game 2 Make Bryant makes a game winning shot with 2 seconds left
2001 Philidephia 76ers Game 1 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 20 seconds left.
2002 San Antonio Spurs Game 4 Make Bryant makes a game winning shot with 5.1 seconds left
2002 Sacramento Kings Game 4 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 3.3 seconds left
2002 Sacramento Kings Game 5 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 0.4 seconds left
2002 Sacramento Kings Game 7 Miss Bryant misses a game winning tip shot with 2.7 seconds left
2003 Minnesota Timberwolves Game 3 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot in OT with 2.6 seconds left.
2003 Minnesota Timberwolves Game 3 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot in OT with 13.4 seconds left
2003 San Antonio Spurs Game 1 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 11.8 seconds left.
2004 Houston Rockets Game 1 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 17.9 seconds left.
2004 Houston Rockets Game 4 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot at the buzzer.
2004 San Antonio Spurs Game 5 Make Bryant makes a game winning shot attempt with 11.9 seconds left.
2004 Detroit Pistons Game 2 Make Bryant makes a game tying shot with 2.1 seconds left.
2006 Phoenix Suns Game 4 Make Bryant makes a game tying shot with 0.2 second left.
2006 Phoenix Suns Game 4 Make Bryant makes a game winning shot at the buzzer in OT.
2006 Phoenix Suns Game 6 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot at the buzzer.
2008 Utah Jazz Game 4 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot with 5.6 seconds left.
2008 San Antonio Spurs Game 1 Make Bryant makes the game winning shot with 23.9 seconds left.
2009 Utah Jazz Game 3 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 1.2 seconds left.
2009 Orlando Magic Game 2 Miss Bryant has his game winning shot blocked with 1.8 sec left.
2010 Oklahoma City Thunder Game 6 Miss Bryant misses game winning shot with 1.8 seconds left.
2010 Phoenix Suns Game 5 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot with 2.5 seconds left.
2011 Dallas Mavericks Game 1 Miss Bryant misses a game winning shot at the end of regulation
2012 Denver Nuggets Game 5 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot with 21 seconds left
2012 Denver Nuggets Game 5 Miss Bryant misses a game tying shot with 5 seconds left

As you can imagine our reader response to this data varied; The Kobe Haters were ecstatic, the objective readers were enlightened, and Kobe Nation was infuriated. Emotions ran the gamut as there was something for everybody. However, aside from the differing reactions, one question that I was repeatedly asked was “Who would I rather have taking the last shot in a playoff game instead of Kobe Bryant”?

My answer is simple – I want a guy who has a strong ability to create their own shot, and most importantly, has demonstrated prior success in making the playoff game winning/game tying shot when called upon.

My choice is Lebron James.

Similar to our analysis with Kobe Bryant, our team reviewed the game tape on each and every Game Winning/Game Tying shot that Lebron James has attempted throughout his playoff career since entering the league in 2003. We further validated by cross-referencing our analysis against box scores, game recaps, and play-by-plays. The results show that Lebron James is 5/12 or 41.7% while Kobe Bryant is 7/25 or 25.9%.

Year Opponent Game Result Description
2006 Washington Wizards Game 3 Make James makes a game winning shot with 5 seconds left
2006 Washington Wizards Game 5 Miss James misses a game winning shot at the end of regulation
2006 Washington Wizards Game 5 Make James makes a game winning shot with 3 seconds left in OT
2007 Detroit Pistons Game 2 Miss James misses a game winning shot with 7 seconds left
2007 Detroit Pistons Game 5 Make James makes a game tying shot with 9 seconds left
2007 Detroit Pistons Game 5 Make James makes a game winning shot with 2 seconds left
2007 San Antonion Spurs Game 3 Miss James misses a game tying 3-point shot with 1 second left
2008 Washington Wizards Game 5 Miss James misses a game winning shot at the end of regulation
2008 Boston Celtics Game 1 Miss James misses a game tying shot with 9 seconds left
2009 Orlando Magic Game 2 Make James makes a game winning shot at the end of regulation
2009 Orlando Magic Game 4 Miss James misses a game winning shot at the end of regulation
2011 Philadelphia 76ers Game 4 Miss James misses a game tying shot with 3 seconds left on the clock

Side note: We also conducted a similar analysis on Michael Jordan for those interested.

More interestingly however, is that Lebron has made only two fewer game winning/game tying shot despite taking 15 fewer shot attempts, and playing in 116 fewer playoff games.

I have long held the position that Kobe Bryant is vastly overrated when it comes to the game winning/game tying shot and has been the biggest beneficiary of false perception in the post-Jordan era. So why then do most NBA fans still insist that Bryant, despite having only a 25.9% success rate, should be the overwhelming choice to take the last shot?

Is it because they believe that Kobe Bryant is the most “fearless” and most willing to take the game winning/game tying shot while other players shy away from the big moment?I have long held the position that Kobe Bryant is vastly overrated when it comes to the game winning/game tying shot and has been the biggest beneficiary of false perception in the post-Jordan era. So why then do most NBA fans still insist that Bryant, despite having only a 25.9% success rate, should be the overwhelming choice to take the last shot?

This has been one of the longer running myths in the NBA, so let’s take the opportunity to dispel this immediately.

In only 99 career playoff games Lebron James has attempted 12 game winning/game tying shots. By comparison, in 217 career playoff games, Kobe Bryant has attempted 25 game winning/game tying shots. Now, I understand that there are a variety of factors that come into play as to why one player has had more shot opportunities over the other, but the notion that Lebron is unwilling, or afraid is false considering that after 8 playoff seasons, he is on a faster pace to take more game winning/game tying playoff shots in his career than Kobe Bryant.

Many NBA fans love to point to Game 1 of the 2007 Eastern Conference Finals as evidence of Lebron’s reluctance in last-shot situations. At the end of that game, Lebron drove the lane, encountered a double-team, and instead of shooting, passed off to Donyell Marshall for a wide-open three point shot attempt to win -  a shot that Marshall had repeatedly hit during crucial moments throughout the 2007 season – except this time, he missed, and fingers were pointed back at The King.

For the record, Lebron James did not pass up that shot because he was afraid or unwilling. He obviously wasn’t afraid or unwilling during the prior year’s playoffs in 2006 when he attempted 3 game winning/game tying shots in only 2 playoff rounds. He obviously wasn’t afraid or unwilling when only two games later (Game 5) in 2007, he attempted and made both the game winning and game tying shot while scoring his team’s last 25 points in one of the most legendary individual performances in NBA history. Instead, Lebron simply made the correct basketball play; the same correct basketball play that Kobe Bryant made when double teamed during Game 4 of the 2009 NBA Finals in which he passed off to Derek Fisher for the game winning shot. The same correct basketball play that Isiah Thomas made when double teamed during Game 5 of the 1990 NBA Finals in which he passed off to Vinnie Johnson for the game winning shot. The same correct basketball play that Michael Jordan made when double teamed during Game 6 of the 1997 NBA Finals when he passed off to Steve Kerr for the game winning shot.

Instead of forcing  low percentage shots that have little opportunity to go in, Lebron has historically done what every coach, GM, fan, and talking head has always preached to their superstars – take the highest percentage shot and trust your teammates. Derek Fisher, Vinnie Johnson, Steve Kerr all came to prominence because their star player gave them a chance, and Donyell Marshall was no different. The only distinction is that Donyell Marshall missed. However, this notion that Lebron James is afraid of the big shot is completely unfounded.

Moreover, on a side note, I never quite understood this attraction to “fearlessness”. Perhaps it’s just me, but I could care less whether a player is “fearless” or “fearful” as long as they make the shot. Am I missing something? Let me put this another way -  I will take a fearful who makes his game winning/game tying shots at a higher success rate than a fearless player who misses them – the only thing that matters is the result, and regardless of how you perceive Lebron James, the fact remains that in playoff game winning/game tying shot attempts, he has demonstrated a higher level of success than Kobe Bryant.

Is it because it is usually impossible to get easy shots during game winning/game tying situations, and Kobe Bryant is the best “tough shot maker” in the NBA?

Here are some facts for you…. of the 12 game winning/game tying shots that Lebron James attempted in the playoffs, 9 were either layups or shots within 5-7 feet of the basket. Of the 5 game winning/game tying shots that Lebron James successfully made, 4 were layups.

So why then is there this impression that the last shot in a game needs to be a tough one?

Players are not limited to tough shots in game winning/game tying situations. They are limited by their own talent and/or skill set that enables them to get the best shot possible. And no wing player in the NBA can get themselves a higher percentage shot while driving to the basket than Lebron James can, as evidenced by his high FG%. Do you really think that Kobe Bryant would have passed up 9/12 layup attempts if he had the opportunity? No, Kobe simply lacked the quickness and athleticism to generate the easy basket. So why take a more difficult, lower percentage jumpshot, when you can use your physical skills and athleticism to get a layup, or a higher percentage shot as Lebron has repeatedly demonstrated?

Moreover, Lebron, while perhaps not as adept as Kobe, is still nonetheless entirely capable of creating and making difficult shots. Look no further than his game winning step back jumper against Orlando (Gm2) in 2009. But keep in mind that Lebron took that shot not because he was limited by the defense, but because he was limited by time on the clock – there was only 1 second remaining. Regardless, Lebron has shown that he is willing to take and make the tough shot if needed.

The notion that the game winning/game tying shot needs to be an off-balance, closely defended, double teamed, 3-point prayer is misleading, and having the ability to create and make easy shots with limited time on the clock is far more advantageous than having the ability to create and take a tough one.

Is it because Kobe Bryant demonstrates the most outward level of confidence or “swagger” than anyone else?

Really? Do you think it is because he protrudes his jaw out the furthest every time he makes a shot, or nicknames himself after a snake that strikes with 99.9% accuracy even though he himself strikes with 45% (as evidenced by his FG%)?

Over the past 12 years, I have watched Tim Duncan win 4 NBA championships, 2 Regular Season MVPs, 3 NBA Finals MVPs,  lead his team to an average of 57 wins per season and 10 consecutive 50-win seasons, and make multiple All-NBA and All-Defense teams……..  and I am still not convinced the guy has a pulse. Good luck trying to read HIS body language – Tim Duncan is simply emotionless. But that does not mean that he lacks confidence or that internal swagger that is the makeup of a champion. Tim Duncan is the greatest power forward of all time and has delivered key clutch performances and shots throughout his career.

Just because a player refrains from scowling or making faces, doesn’t mean that they do not care, lack that drive or passion, or lack that internal confidence or swagger. Trying to ascertain a player’s disposition through body language is erroneous at best, so let’s just judge them by their results on the court instead of emulating the ‘E’ Fashion Police.

Is it because 78% of the expert GMs have all declared Kobe Bryant the unanimous choice to take the game winning/game tying shot despite all of the data to contrary, and therefore it must be true no matter how emotional or illogical it may seem?

Hmmm, let me see if I have this right……

Are these the same experts who made horrendous draft-day decisions such as unanimously agreeing that Kwame Brown should be the #1 overall pick in 2001 draft, and selected Sam Bowie over Michael Jordan in 1984, Darko Milicic over Camelo Anthony in 2003, Russell Cross over Clyde Drexler in 1983, Nikoloz Tskitishvili over Amare Stoudemire in 2003, Uwe Blab (yes there was actually some who had both Uwe and Blab in his name) over Joe Dumars in 1985, Michael Olowokandi over Vince Carter, Paul Pierce, and Dirk Nowitzki in 1998, and Joe Smith over Kevin Garnett in 1995?

And just to clarify, are these the same experts that have made some of the most egregious trades in sports history such as trading away Dirk Nowitzki for Tractor Traylor in 1998, Olden Polynice for Scottie Pippen in 1987, Vlade Divac for Kobe Bryant in 1996, Joe Barry Carroll for Robert Parrish AND Kevin McHale in 1978, Dr. J for cash in 1973, Charles Barkley for Jeff Hornacek 1992, Wilt Chamberlain for Jerry Chambers (who?) in 1968, and Moses Malone twice during the late 70s and mid-80s for nothing short of a cardboard box?

And just to ensure that I am ABSOLUTELY understanding this correctly, are these are the same experts that have repeatedly made atrocious cap killing and franchise crippling personnel decisions such as the free agent signings of Eddy Curry for 10 million dollars per year, Jerome James for 6 million per year, Jarred Jeffries for 6 million per year, Larry Hughes for 14 million per year, Erick Dampier for 10 million per year, Rashard Lewis for 20 million per year, and Darko Milicic for 5 million per year?

And lastly, just to make sure that there is no confusion whatsoever, are these the same experts who can barely keep the same job for more than 3 years, subsist in an industry where their workforce volatility is defined as a “carousel” ride, are repeatedly booed and chastised by their own fans in every public forum, embark upon start-over “rebuilding” plans as frequently as my gay cousin changes his wardrobe, and have made decision after decision after decision that has grossly inflated player salaries,  bankrupted small market teams, and forced multiple, image-tarnishing lockouts?

THOSE EXPERTS???

Well I do not know about you, but I’m 100% sold!

Look, I am not saying that every GM or Coach is an idiot.  I am however saying that they have been egregiously wrong in the past and perhaps, just perhaps, they could be wrong again? Could it be that GMs, like fans, have failed to truly analyze the data, and as a result, exude a human element that can sometimes be governed by emotions instead of logic?

But hey, let’s not analyze the history or the data for ourselves or anything. Instead, lets just stick our heads in the sand like ostriches, ignore all of the facts, take the word of the so called experts at face value since they have never ever ever ever been wrong, and agree to pay an addition 10% ticket premium next year so that we can compensate for their unjustifiable financial, scouting and personnel choices that keep our teams in a perpetual state of mediocrity.

 

So then, why do all the experts believe that Kobe Bryant is the unanimous choice to take the Game Winning/ Game Tying shot. How can they ALL be wrong?

Answer this question honestly. Once you found out that Lebron James had made 5 game winning/game tying shots in his playoff career, how many of them did you actually remember?

Honestly?

I asked this question to several NBA fans and the answer was unanimous: only one – the game winning 3-point shot against Orlando, and that’s it. And do you know why? Because the other 4 were unspectacular, uneventful, and rudimentary layups, which brings me to my next point:

The reason that most experts and fans around the NBA consider Kobe Bryant the unanimous choice for the game winning/game tying shot is NOT because he gives his team the best chance for a make, nor because he has demonstrated the most success in the past. Instead, it is because:

a.)   As fans, we are human, and geared to remember the makes far more often than we do the misses.

b.)   When your game winning/game tying shots are far more spectacular and memorable than anyone else’s (especially Lebron James), they become more indelibly etched into people’s minds, and as a result, perception soon becomes false reality.

Think about it. We all remember Kobe’s game tying 3 point shot against Detroit in 2004 just as we do his game winning and game tying shots against Phoenix in 2006. Moreover, Kobe is not alone in this respect. Who can forget MJ’s game winning shot to win the 1998 Finals against Utah, or the “The Shot” against Cleveland in 1989?

And do you know why we remember those shots? Because they were all spectacular, artistic, finesse shots that required a high degree of difficulty and made us say “wow”! They were appealing to the viewer and soon repeatedly rebranded via numerous NBA marketing efforts and commercials. As a result, people  remember the spectacular while disregarding the unspectacular and there soon becomes this perception that Kobe Bryant has been largely successful in game winning shots.

It is no coincidence that we fail to remember Lebron’s game winning/game tying shots. His shots do not offer that same level artistry or finesse, and lack that “wow” factor that comes natural to Kobe Bryant. In fact, 4 out 5 of Lebron’s game winning/game tying shots were unmemorable layups or relatively easy baskets within close range, and many of them exemplified Lebron as a bull in a china shop who relies upon brut force, power and physical strength to get easy baskets. Even though his playoff game winning/game tying shot attempts have been more successful than Kobe’s, Lebron gets penalized for his style. In fact, it can be argued that Kobe’s misses are far more enjoyable to watch than Lebron’s makes, and that is why Kobe Bryant is largely the beneficiary of perception versus reality.

This is why it is imperative to revisit the facts and examine the data. I have been watching the NBA for nearly 30 years and consider myself to have a memory like an elephant. However, I still tend to forget the rudimentary while gravitating toward the spectacular. Its easier to remember the spectacular since it is more fun, and offers more enjoyable eye candy. However, unspectacular does not = unsuccessful, and a made basket, whether spectacular or unspectacular, is still nonetheless a success. As such, the facts show that Lebron James has demonstrated a higher rate of success with 5/12 shooting than Kobe Bryant at 7/27.

So in parting, I ask members of Kobe Nation to take a pause before you start sending me angry message posts, emails, and accusations. We are all human and all guided by perceptions, and it is impossible to cast an accurate assessment without revisiting the facts. Kobe Bryant is a great player, one of the top 15 players to ever play the game, and one of the 10 most unique talents to enter the NBA. However, Kobe Bryant is overrated when it comes to game winning/game tying shots, and Lebron James has historically performed better. Plain and simple.

Ok now you can send me all of your angry emails, message posts and accusations.

Related posts:

  1. Michael Jordan: Game Winning Shots
  2. Did Kobe Bryant Quit in the 2006 Western Conference 1st Round Game 7 vs. The Phoenix Suns?
  3. Kobe and the Clutch Playoff Performance Myth
  4. Should Lebron James Be Considered A Legend?
  5. LeBron James vs. Dwyane Wade – Who Should Be The Miami Heat’s Closer?

Discussion

802 Responses to “Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James: Game Winning Shots”

  1. you spent a lot of time proving nothing other than your idiocy. You forgot to mention lebron airballing free throws in the finals when his team got swept. Also you forgot to mention how many rings kobe has compared to lebron, oh yeah, and regular season mvp means almost nothing. Finals MVP is what counts, and rings. Lebron will probably never achieve the stature of MJ or Kobe. Simply because he doesnt have the stones, but he would probably let you blow him.

    Posted by brett Ballantyne | May 3, 2011, 2:27 pm
    • Thanks for the read as well as the sexual innuendo Brett – but I’m not sure what the missed FT and rings have to do with Game Winning/Game Tying shots.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 2:50 pm
      • it doesnt matter about a missed three in game 1, nobody remembers that, they remember airballed free throws, stupid fouls, etc. things that really decide the end of a game. take gasol for example, hes to blame. That is what inspired this article so it is in a way the under lying subject.

        Posted by brett Ballantyne | May 3, 2011, 5:55 pm
        • Actually, what inspired my article was a comparison between Lebron and Kobe in game winning shot situations, and to reaffirm my contention that Kobe Bryant is overrated in last shot situations. Thats really it. In fact, I actually agree with you that Kobe should not be blamed for yesterday’s loss, and despite having 0 assists, played a pretty good game. However, my comparison is not focused on who should be blamed for yesterday’s loss. It is simply focused on the fact that Lebron is better than Kobe in last shot situations.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 6:10 pm
          • I have had this same problem with Kobe fans for a long time. No matter what the discussion is about, the second they start losing the upper hand, they divert to the rings. If Lebron came into the league and had Shaq in his prime on his team, he’d have multiple rings too. What happened when Shaq got traded? Your hero couldn’t get past the first round and didnt even make the playoffs one those years! Hmm.. sounds like Kobe would have been where Lebron is now if he didnt have Shaq, so stop throwing that into every argument and stay on topic. Great article and I really appreciate how calm you remain in the face of Kobe nation and continue to win out with articulate points

            Posted by LBJ06 | May 3, 2011, 9:21 pm
          • I appreciate the kind words LBJ06 – It amazes me how fans respond when confronted with facts. It becomes an emotional experience and there is a tendancy to shift off-topic. Kobe is a great player, but simply overrated when it comes to GW/GT shots.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 10:16 pm
          • Sorry NBA Realist,
            Not only are you copying and pasting most of what I read here along with copying and pasting the spreadsheet of “Makes” and “Misses” (LOL), but this argument has already been refuted. Your copying from Chasing23. ha-ha!
            This was in reference in ESPN attempting to wrap a number or metric around Kobe’s “clutchness” a word that is impossible to define in my opinion. Every day I get things from fans that are metric-based and bordering ludicrous. Numbers are important to the game and some times metrics make great sense. But they aren’t fact. They are facts based on math. You need the combination of some metrics and stats and gut feeling and basketball sense. The idea that “numbers don’t lie” is completely misleading, they just tell a different story. Whatever story the author wants to tell.
            Look at the data, Kobe has had 115 attempts and every player on the other team knows he’s getting the ball. It’s a wonder he gets a shot off let alone makes it. A”clutch” shot, in my opinion, can be in the 2nd quarter to stop a big run from the other team. It can be a three point shot off a steal made at the end of the half with your team trailing by 10. It can be against the shot clock in the 3rd quarter. It doesn’t have to be at the end of games with the outcome on the line, but we, as fans, have been programmed to believe the person who makes a game-winning shot at the end of s PLAYOFF game is “clutch.” Guys can be bad in the regular season and be “clutch” playoff performers.

            Posted by ShaneFM | May 4, 2011, 9:24 am
          • ShaneFM – I do not know how to break this to you, but this IS Chasing23. Are you saying that I am copying from myself?

            I think you are changing the topic. This article is not about clutch during different periods of the game. It is about GW/GT shots which I will argue is the MOST clutch point of the game. If a player fails to deliver a clutch moment in the 3rd period, he still has a chance. However, a player who misses a game tying shot puts his team in a potential state of failure.

            The link to the Abbot article is not to reference clutch. It is to provide a list of GW/GT shots during the regular season and playoffs combined. Thats it.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 11:49 am
          • ShaneFM, I share the sentiment that clutch can occur at any point in the game, yet anything other than the game-winner or late game situation will be labeled as “pivotal”. Nonetheless, these situations have important bearing on the game since we all know NBA games are games of runs. I’m eagerly awaiting when this metric is presented, but I won’t hold my breath.

            Posted by J.T. | May 4, 2011, 10:29 am
          • Hey man, i think that you forgot to add the two clutch shots kobe made against portland back in 2004. one was to force OT and the second was to win the game.

            Posted by KB* | May 5, 2011, 9:41 am
          • KB – Thanks for the read

            Actually I didn’t forget. That was a regular season game. This analysis was focused exclusively on Playoff GW/GT shots.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | May 5, 2011, 11:19 am
          • I can’t believe people are debating statistics. There are obviously some things that we can all have issues with (e.g. it’s not a huge dataset), but I think it’s absurd that people write stuff such as “you need the combination of some metrics and stats and gut feeling and basketball sense” (sorry to call you out on this ShaneFM).

            It is that type of “old school” thinking that make books such as Money Ball, The Extra 2%, etc. interesting reads. It is this reason why you have players who become GMs (read: Isiah Thomas) have no business being in that position. It’s the same reason Michael Jordan (arguably the best player of all time) has not been a great owner or GM. It’s because there’s a significant difference between playing the game of basketball based on your “basketball sense” and what makes a championship team.

            Posted by gametime | May 10, 2011, 6:15 am
          • Thanks for the read gametime. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Its spin doctoring at best. The same folks who continually claimed that Kobe has been the best career performer when it comes to GW/GT shots are now saying that the data is inconclusive and that no one can really be deemed most clutch. Interesting backtrack.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | May 10, 2011, 1:14 pm
          • You should stop trying to convince Kobe lovers that Lebron is better in clutch. They will never c it even if kobe told them straight from his mouth. U laid it all out for them and they come back talking about rings. The rings r a given and so r the game winners. But Kobe fans don’t wan to hear it! The fans are blind as well as the media

            Posted by Eleanorwells | January 15, 2012, 8:07 pm
          • Eleanorwells, thank you for the response. Remember, the media promotes that which sells, not that which is true.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 17, 2012, 1:13 am
          • You made a typo in your article, Kobe has 2 more game winners, not 1. Also, I don’t support either Lebron or Kobe, but to hear you say 4 of lebrons 5 were lay ups and the 5th was a lucky bank shot doesn’t sound extremely clutch to me…

            Posted by Trying2BeUnbiased | January 17, 2012, 11:17 am
          • Thanks for the read and the catch.

            Question: Curious as to why you believe that a player that generates points with the game on the line is not “not extremely clutch”. Why should it matter whether it is a layup or a jumpshot? Isn’t delivering 2 points in a crucial situation still delivering?

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 17, 2012, 1:00 pm
          • I just have a few questions regarding your article and a few of your questions/comments in your “comments” to said article.

            1. “So why then is there this impression that the last shot in a game needs to be a tough one?”

            Are you suggesting that if a player makes a wide open lay-up at the end of the game, as a result of a blown defensive assignment, that he is “Clutch”?

            I am not trying to argue for or against either Lebron or Kobe, but if, as your article states, 4 of Lebron’s 5 game-winning shots are Lay-Ups, does that really persuade you (or any fan) to choose Lebron as the most “clutch” playoff performer?

            With 10 seconds left in the game, down by 2 points, game on the line…your team needs a 2 to tie or a 3 to win, who do you choose to take that game winning 3-pointer?

            Would you choose a player that has made only 1 playoff game winning shot outside of 3 feet in his entire playoff career? That doesn’t sound too smart.

            Kobe might not be the answer either, but I would pick Carmelo, Ray Allen or Nowitski over Lebron for a game winning shot outside of 3 feet.

            2. “… I’m not sure what the missed FT and rings have to do with Game Winning/Game Tying shots”

            Are you suggesting that hitting 2 free throws with 0.3 seconds on the clock, with your team down 1 point is NOT “clutch”?

            You, yourself even stated “Question: Curious as to why you believe that a player that generates points with the game on the line is not “not extremely clutch”. Isn’t delivering 2 points in a crucial situation still delivering?”

            Seems like you are contradicting yourself here a bit.

            Why is making an uncontested lay-up “clutch” but hitting free throws when the game is on the line not “clutch”? Both “generate points with the game on the line.”

            Posted by Basketball Fan | January 17, 2012, 7:38 pm
          • Basketball Fan, thanks for the read and I appreciate your questions:

            1.) No, I am saying that if a player is able to create an easy shot for himself, and MAKE the shot, he his more clutch. Moreover, if he is able to get players out of position, or compel them to “blow assignments”, more power to him. The bottom line is that I prefer the guy who can succeed, no matter how he does it.

            2.) Hitting 2 FT’s are absolutely clutch. However, the article defined GW shots as FGA. Not FT or turnovers. Regardless, there was only 1 instance in which FTA between these 2 players were actually taken. Refs typically tend to swallow the whistle.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 17, 2012, 8:32 pm
          • I know this is old but i just came across it. I saw your little jab at Kobe about the 0 assist. If your such and nba realist then you would know that Kobe playing in the triangle offense doesnt get the assist because its the big man in the paint that gets it being that the wing players are cutting to the basket and handleing the ball at the elbow. Gasol is the guy that gets the assist that is why in that offense you dont need a true pg. So therefore i question your knowledge about basketball and you just came off to me as a kobe hater. Who gives a crap about stats dude i give it the eye test and my eyes tell me kobe by far is the more clutch player. Not even close

            Posted by Fred | January 27, 2012, 10:31 pm
          • So, Fred,

            When playing golf, do you keep score or just use the eye test to determine who wins?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 28, 2012, 11:53 pm
          • Basketball Fan, thanks for the read and I appreciate your questions:

            1.) No, I am saying that if a player is able to create an easy shot for himself, and MAKE the shot, he his more clutch. Moreover, if he is able to get players out of position, or compel them to “blow assignments”, more power to him. The bottom line is that I prefer the guy who can succeed, no matter how he does it.

            2.) Hitting 2 FT’s are absolutely clutch. However, the article defined GW shots as FGA. Not FT or turnovers. Regardless, there was only 1 instance in which FTA between these 2 players were actually taken. Refs typically tend to swallow the whistle.
            —————————-

            I have a few rebuttals about your response. Not one of your response addressed the guy’s points, in face your response side-stepped the main arguments he presented.
            1. His point still stands. Because you’ve based your entire argument off FGM/FGA, you completely wipe out the other “circumstances”. How easy was the shot? Was it easy to due the player’s own abilities expoliting or a defense failing to recognize the play and blowing the assignment on their own? The list can go on and on and that is the reader’s point.

            2. Counting FT makes and misses during “clutch” time is just as important as FG makes and misses.

            3. Where do you have proof for: “In my article, I cited the NBA’s standard Game Winning/Game Tying Shot Metric used by coaches and GMs throughout the league when scouting opposing teams – shot attempts made with the intent to either win or tie the game within the final 24 seconds, during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points – or in other words, a one-possession game (the concession 2-point basket in which a player’s team is down by 3 points is excluded from this metric). ” I would like to see how that’s NBA’s guidelines, since I have yet to hear or read about this. Considering other basketball sites have their own definition of “clutch time”, why wouldn’t everyone use this “standard” metric?

            Posted by Kevin Tang | January 30, 2012, 3:32 pm
          • Kevin, Thanks for the read and let me try and more directly respond to your questions.

            1.) Made FT are absolutely as clutch as made baskets. However, per our analysis, between both players, there was only once instance in which that occurred making the final results nearly non-impactful. In the end, Kobe Bryant would still end up with a horrible conversion rate. Moreover, Lebron James never attempted a FT in GW/GT shot situations. The reason of course is that the refs rarely call fouls during GW/GT shot situations in playoff games.

            2.) Citing “circumstances” is a cop-out. Moreover trying to cite difficult shots is even more of a cop-out. When comparing Kobe vs. Lebron, the difference is that Lebron found ways to get easier shots than Kobe. So are we to really penalize Lebron and reward Kobe for taking tough shots that he was unable to make easier? Not every shot was a shot with .3 seconds left on the clock. During the majority of instances, BOTH players had time to size their opponents and make decisions.

            3.) The “crunchtime” statistic is used by every team to guage end-of-game performances. My suggestion would be to visit NBA stats cube, and NBA.com for more information.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 30, 2012, 4:06 pm
          • So Paulie-

            When someone asks a question, do you immediately take it out of context and change the subject? Why yes, yes you do.

            Posted by Kevin Tang | January 30, 2012, 3:40 pm
          • Kevin,

            Not everytime. Only when the response is particularly moronic.

            Much like yours have been.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 30, 2012, 9:22 pm
          • So Basically you are saying its a statistical thing, not a situation of who wants the ball in the closing moments. We all have seen LBJ shy away from the clutch moments and pass up shots not to accept the blame. Heartless to say the least.
            So if we are going by stats only then Jeremy Lin by your definition is the most clutch player in NBA history, he is after all 100% on GW/GT shots. I mean you are comparing apples to oranges when you say a guy who only takes 12 shots is comparable to another who has taken 25. Its absurd really.
            Step aside MJ, Kobe,LBJ there’s a new Best ever to put on a uniform according to this statistical Realist and his name is JEREMY LIN

            Posted by k | February 17, 2012, 1:00 pm
          • I’d suggest you re-read the article K. While Kobe has take nearly twice the number of shots, he has also played in 2x the number of player games and 2x the number of years.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | February 17, 2012, 2:02 pm
          • Throw all game winning shots from regular season and playoff games. Who has a higher percentage then. Plus, worry about how many championships Lebron has, or needs to catch the champions of the game. Funny article, you must have alot of free time to worry about that.

            Posted by Al McCray | March 20, 2012, 6:04 am
          • great article and post to this deluded kobetard.

            Posted by MJ GOAT | May 27, 2012, 5:25 am
          • WHAT!?!?!?!? LMFAO LEBRON CANT SHOOT FOR SHIT HE HAS BETTER PERCENTAGES CUZ HE CHOKES AND NEVER WANTS THE BALL IN CRUNCH TIME!! and btw youre 7 of 25 bull shit is not real kobe has 32 game winnershttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BhevJ3AILgo not counting this years

            Posted by andrew | March 26, 2013, 9:40 pm
        • If you miss a three in game 1, and your team loses 4-2, then yes, it’s all about that missed 3 in game 1. Sure, people won’t remember that, because of the human brain nature: we remember ectasy and we forget the basics. We remember the bee that bited us, not the 99.999 who didn’t.

          People forget that, in 2010 vs Suns, Kobe airballed a three pointer because Artest took the rebound and scored. People remember that LeBron, being defended by 3 players, passed the ball to Udonis Haslem, who misses, and then blame to Lebron. If Udonis would had scored, nobody would point Lebron, just like nobody remembers the horrendous airball from Kobe vs Suns, because Artest saved the day.

          Perception is not the same than facts. By perception, it seems the sun goes around the earth (I clearly see it doing so), but reality is not the same.

          Fact is, however, that Kobe has scored 7 times in 25 attempts in the last 24 seconds while losing by 1-2 points. That’s not a matter of perception. That’s a data compilation. What you inferr of those data is up to you, but it does not change the fact that Kobe has scored 7/25 in playoffs.

          Posted by triqui | August 3, 2012, 5:53 am
          • “What you infer of those data is up to you, but it does not change the fact that Kobe has scored 7/25 in playoffs.”

            Absolutely correct.

            Take this story:
            http://www.theatlantic.com/business/print/2012/11/5-statistics-problems-that-will-change-the-way-you-see-the-world/265147/

            “Abraham is tasked with reviewing damaged planes coming back from sorties over Germany in the Second World War. He has to review the damage of the planes to see which areas must be protected even more.

            Abraham finds that the fuselage and fuel system of returned planes are much more likely to be damaged by bullets or flak than the engines. What should he recommend to his superiors?”

            Int his case, the data here is much like the facts presented here. Kobe is 7/25 on game winning shots in the playoffs.

            But what to infer? Is it so obvious?

            In the case of the story:

            “Abraham Wald, a member of the Statistical Research Group at the time, saw this problem and made an unconventional suggestion that saved countless lives.

            Don’t arm the places that sustained the most damage on planes that came back. By virtue of the fact that these planes came back, these parts of the planes can sustain damage.

            If an essential part of the plane comes back consistently undamaged, like the engines in the previous example, that’s probably because all the planes with shot-up engines don’t make it back.”

            Posted by Gil Meriken | March 26, 2013, 10:16 pm
      • It’s tougher to score against zone defenses that can and will push you away from your comfort areas on the floor. If Kobe played in the no zone era, he would have averaged 40, not 35.

        Oh yeah Kobe did play in the no zone era however in his defense he didn’t play long. His first 2 seasons he was under development (barely played) and he had to share the ball with SHAQ and others.

        Keep in mind, Kobe averaged 35 in a zone defense era (not man on man) again, zone defense CAN and WILL push any player out and away from their comfort spots on the floor. Go back and look at Jordan’s shooting percentage from 18-19 or 20 feet away from the basket then come back and tell me, honestly how great he would be if he played in his ear (80′s and 90′s) with today’s defensive sets.

        Posted by Sparksdaman | December 30, 2011, 4:21 am
        • Thanks for the read Sparksdaman, but completely disagree with you.

          First off, if it was tougher to score against zone defenses, more teams other than Phoenix, Golden State and Dallas would be playing it? Zone defenses are gimmick’s that have been historically employed by teams who try to catch their opponent by surprise, not by teams with strong defenses. They are used in college and high school, but rarely in the pros.The reason is that it is not a sustainable defensive scheme. At some point, NBA players will start making open jumpshots or attack the rim and expose the zone. This is what made the Heat’s performance last year so baffling. They remained confused for 4 games during the series

          Second, lets not get confused with terminology here. The NBA got rid of illegal defenses, but implemnted the defensive 3-second rule. It’s the same thing. In sum, llegal defenses required that players could not double team another player without the ball. They could however, double and triple team them if they had the ball. As such, defensive players were able to park themselves in the paint and essentially “zone” their territory while remaining within striking distance of their opponent. No one ever doubl teamed a player off the ball on the permiter then, and they dont do it now. Therefore, Jordan absolutely faced “zones”, and the same double and triple teams in his day. And he was absolutely deadly from 18-20 feet. Where Jordan struggled the most (and only early in his career) was from the 21-23 foot range.

          Lastly, neither Kobe nor Jordan would have averaged 40 points in either era. The 60s, perhaps. But in each respective era, there were simply too few possessions.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | December 30, 2011, 12:06 pm
          • Without the three point line, I really doubt Bryant would average 40 a game. He has only averaged 30 and over ppg 3x in his career. It is hard for me to imagine a huge jump like that even with more possessions.

            Again, I am just baffled by the complete myths, rationalizations, or just made up stuff that surfaces whenever Kobe Bryant is discussed.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | December 30, 2011, 11:11 pm
          • The fundamental flaw in this whole argument is that Kobe has more attempts. With Lebron making 5 of 12, when he takes those same shots now that teams know he can hit them, they are going to double team him or make him pass the ball, like Kobe has had to deal with. When they do this, he is going to either shoot and miss more often, like Kobe has, or he is going to pass, like he did to Udonis Haslem the other day, and we can see that didn’t do anything but boil over. The more shots you take the more you are going to miss. Percentages are deceiving that way. When you start out in a basketball game shooting from the field 8 of 10, is it likely that that percentage will continue? No. Teams are going to make you miss or pass. Sadly, although a great argument at first glance, your reason is flawed in coherence to the straw man fallacy.

            Posted by alex | March 13, 2012, 11:20 pm
      • This seems like another one of these totally obscure stats to keep LBJ in the conversation for being one of the greats. You keep talking about Kobe being overrated. LBJ won the rookie of the year award and clearly he did not deserve it. You talk about doing your homework and remembering the past, do your homework, go back look at the numbers, Carmello Anthony should have been the rookie of the year, but in order to keep LBJ on pace with MJ and Kobe the League handed him the rookie award. Now you come up with this topic about playoff gw/gt shots, how about Series winning shots or finals gt/gw shots when it really matters?????? LBJ is so overhyped and overrated, not Kobe and that comment about Kobe having Shaq in his prime that was done by the Laker organization, not Kobe calling everybody in the league and begging them to play with him so he could Win, trying to stack a team like LBJ did, and what happened??? He assembled this team of SO Called ALL-Stars and what happened??? Oh ya, they still Lost to The MAVS????? really The MAVS?????? This after LBJ said They were not going to win just 1, not 2 ,3,4,5,10……………. and NOTHING. Great stat though. Way to do your homework and find something LBJ actually leads the League in, a meaningless stat, that no doubt will get him into the Hall of Fame.
        If team USA was playing let LBJ score 50 points throughout the game get his highlights for ESPN, but if there was a last second GW/GT shot it goes to Kobe, Durant, D-Wade, Then maybe LBJ is 4th option.

        Posted by K | February 16, 2012, 2:28 pm
        • You do make good points. The only thing I will say is that you are banging on the Heat for losing to the Mavs, a team that was ROLLING, 4-2 when the Lakers were swept in a series that was not nearly as competitive. Also, Lebron is a genetic physical specimen. If you watch his game now how can you possibly say this guy is only hyped? He has the once in a lifetime genetics to overpower and outrun almost everyone he plays against.

          Posted by Sam | March 2, 2012, 2:57 pm
        • If I recall, the lakers were SWEPT by those same mavs…”THE MAVS????? really”

          Posted by B | March 5, 2012, 12:30 am
        • I’d like to add my two cents. LeBron didn’t promise multiple championships. If you watch the video it was in response to the statement that they came to Miami to win championships, not 1. LeBron was just saying that they came to win as many as they can. He just did it in a way that would hype up the crowd. Would you rather hear your city’s new star player say “eh … I know I signed a multi-year contract but I really just want to win only one championship.”

          LeBron is the first player I have ever witnessed with this level of media scrutiny, and the fans eat it all up.

          I actually enjoyed this article very much and even the comments. Realist, you handle everyone’s comments with composure, even the Kobe fans you refuse to see the truth. Good job.

          Posted by Another Paulie | June 12, 2012, 4:35 am
      • So Basically you are saying its a statistical thing, not a situation of who wants the ball in the closing moments. We all have seen LBJ shy away from the clutch moments and pass up shots not to accept the blame. Heartless to say the least.
        So if we are going by stats only then Jeremy Lin by your definition is the most clutch player in NBA history, he is after all 100% on GW/GT shots. I mean you are comparing apples to oranges when you say a guy who only takes 12 shots is comparable to another who has taken 25. Its absurd really.
        Step aside MJ, Kobe,LBJ there’s a new Best ever to put on a uniform according to this statistical Realist and his name is JEREMY LIN

        Posted by k | February 17, 2012, 12:59 pm
      • Your boy LBJ did it again in the All Star game. He scored 36 pts only to pass up the game tying shot not once but twice. I love all the excuses all the LBJ swingers said, “it was just a glorified pick-up game”. Then he does it again tonight. he scores 17 pts in the 4th quarter to bring his team back. Then when it came down to win the game he obviously chickened out again, passed it to another Heat player who missed the shot. Once again excuses, excuses, It was a good basketball play. Please explain to me how???? How much does Pat Riley shell out for his contract and he does not want the ball in the clutch moments. He is a glorified SCORER that’s it. He is not a closer period. I bet if we start digging into the NBA archives, we could make all kinds of comparisons making any player in the NBA comparable to one another and….yes even your Golden boy LBJ The GUTLESS Wonder.
        Sweet DUNK. He made ESPN Top 10 Highlights though. There’s a stat, he has most likely been on ESPN top 10 more than any active player, and still No RING.

        Posted by k | March 2, 2012, 11:13 pm
      • I would like to question your data. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P19EJXZlGk
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b-3s90fR1ak
        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xsNd2-dsP8
        There are three links to videos which prove your data did not include all of Kobe’s game winners. And since you missed those three, who knows how many more you may have missed?? And how many misses you may have missed as well. Your data is incorrect. Kobe’s Clutchness>>>>

        Posted by alex | March 13, 2012, 11:05 pm
        • Read the article Alex. PLAYOFFS – Not regular season.

          Posted by Trailblazer8 | March 14, 2012, 6:28 am
          • I didn’t read the top paragraph.. so I am wrong there. However if this is limited to only the playoffs it is possibly one of the most misconceiving articles on the internet. First off, we all know Lebron is a regular season wizard and a playoff peasant.. How many rings has he won again?? Secondly, like I commented above, Kobe has taken more than twice as many shots, so either way of course he is going to have missed more. That’s what the flaw in using percentages is. The more you shoot, the more you’re going to miss, especially once teams realize you can shoot and make it. They will make you miss or pass, which Lebron has been subject to.

            Posted by alex | April 21, 2012, 11:47 am
          • Alex,

            You are confusing totals with rates.

            The rate represents how OFTEN shots are made based upon the attepmts.

            The totals are not the subject of comparison, rather the rates are.

            The statement that “if one shoots more he will miss more” is not complete as it pertains to this comparison.

            If one shoots more often, he also has a greater chance of INCREASING his rate or even keeping it the same.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | April 21, 2012, 11:40 pm
          • KB, You are full of it man, this was your question So who would you rather have taking the last shot at the end of a playoff game? Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James? also on top you response to someone that your article was focused on playoff not regular season, find something else to do because you are not to good laying.

            Posted by Hugo Hidalgo | August 11, 2012, 11:55 am
      • To the NBA realist. Stats are a good way to compare players in any aspect; although, the stats which are provided are u warranted. You rely on these numbers as if they will foretell future performances. I would assume you don’t have the minimum understanding of how statistics work. Here are a few points that has to be considered in order to have a good sample analysis:

        1) This is the most important part of statistics!!!!! To have a good representation of the whole, a sample size of at least 30 outcomes have to be produced. Without at least 30 outcomes, the variation of error could be greatly exaggerated.

        2) Are the results accumulated under control circumstances? Which basically means, was the results taken in the same environment each time. Apparently not. Were the games all home games or all away games? Were they all day, afternoon, or night games? Again, this will also include an exaggeration in error.

        3) Are the subjects being compared similar? In mathematical statistics, two (or more) subjects being compared have to be identical. Apparently the subjects are not comparable. Kobe being a guard, and Lebron being a forward. The comparison being conducted should be between Lebron James and Kevin Durant. Both of the
        previously mentioned are both forwards and similar heights and weights.

        There are more rules that has to be considered in order to say who (or what) is better in terms of statistics. Your outcome of who is better is an uneducated one. Rather would only be based on your opinion, as others also has theirs.

        Posted by Art A. | April 4, 2012, 4:38 pm
      • To the Author of this “so called stats” research,

        Stats are a good way to compare players in any aspect; although, the stats which are provided are unwarranted. You rely on these numbers as if they will foretell future performances. I would assume you don’t have the minimum understanding of how statistics work. Here are a few points that has to be considered in order to have a good sample analysis:

        1) This is the most important part of statistics!!!!! To have a good representation of the whole, a sample size of at least 30 outcomes have to be produced. Without at least 30 outcomes, the variation of error could be greatly exaggerated.

        2) Are the results accumulated under control circumstances? Which basically means, was the results taken in the same environment each time. Apparently not. Were the games all home games or all away games? Were they all day, afternoon, or night games? Again, this will also include an exaggeration in error.

        3) Are the subjects being compared similar? In mathematical statistics, two (or more) subjects being compared have to be identical. Apparently the subjects are not comparable. Kobe being a guard, and Lebron being a forward. The comparison being conducted should be between Lebron James and Kevin Durant. Both of the
        previously mentioned are both forwards and similar heights and weights.

        There are more rules that has to be considered in order to say who (or what) is better in terms of statistics. Your outcome of who is better is an uneducated one. Rather would only be based on your opinion, as others also has theirs.

        Posted by Art A. | April 4, 2012, 4:44 pm
      • stfu!!! LeBron is better then kobe old selfish ass…(shaking my head)

        Posted by CornOnACobb | September 27, 2012, 11:47 am
    • Hey dumbass, airballing a free throw in the 2nd quarter is a hell of a lot better than airballing 4 times in the closing moments of a playoff game. Think of all the teams Kobe’s been on, especially when he was Shaq’s sidekick for 3 years. Lebron is entering his prime and Kobe’s leaving his. I can’t wait till Lebron wins his rings so idiots like you can shut the hell up with your ignorant comments. Lebron is already the better player, never sold out his teammates to investigators or the media. Kobe can keep raping girls and Lebron can keep getting better.

      Posted by Jay | May 4, 2011, 6:43 pm
    • how many rings does lebron have?

      Posted by david | May 6, 2011, 7:08 am
      • well horry has 7 if you wanna use that as a measurement. also fisher has 5 and has had more success than kobe in the playoffs.

        Posted by greg | May 6, 2011, 1:48 pm
        • How many rings does Lebron have while playing the the most minutes in the playoffs for those teams?

          Kobe has 4.

          Posted by Gil Meriken | May 6, 2011, 4:33 pm
          • How many playoff series has Kobe won in years when he had noone with higher production (WS/48) or efficiency (PER) than himself on his team that season?

            LeBron won 9

            Posted by bla | May 7, 2011, 1:41 pm
          • You get trophies for those things?

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 7, 2011, 5:56 pm
          • You don’t get trophies for playing the most minutes either you dumbfuck. Is the person who plays the most minutes the person who should get the most credit, or the person who plays the best and produces the most?

            Luol Deng has averaged 45minutes a game this post season while Rose is averaging 39.5. Deng averaged 39 minutes in the regular season while Rose averaged 37minutes in the regular season. I guess Deng is actually the biggest reason Chicago’s doing well.

            In 6 years from now, LeBron will have 6 rings, at least 3 finals MVPS and 4 regular season MVPs, and Kobe’s resume will look like ass in comparison. He had a chance to cement his legacy with a 3peat, but instead he’s struggling to not get swept in the second round. Put LeBron on a team with Gasol, Bynum and Odom and he’s winning rings for sure.

            Same for Wade, wade showed what he could do with an out of prime shaq, imagine if he has prime shaq like kobe did, Wade definitely would have gotten 4 rings off that shaq.

            Posted by Ragib | May 8, 2011, 9:09 am
          • The person who plays the most minutes should get the most credit.

            Also the person who scores the most points in one regular season game is the best. That would be Wilt Chamberlain.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 8, 2011, 11:07 am
          • I actually give it to the guy who has the most minutes played in an NBA game. Dale Ellis’ record of 69 minutes is almost untouchable. That’s why he’s the best ever.

            Posted by Lochpster | May 8, 2011, 8:08 pm
          • Dale Ellis was pretty awesome!

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 8, 2011, 8:28 pm
        • You forgot to mention the GOAT, Bill Russell since its all about rings…

          Posted by B | March 5, 2012, 12:33 am
      • How many women has Lebron allegedly raped.

        Posted by George | May 19, 2011, 1:44 pm
      • In 6 years and 2 weeks he will have 7.

        Posted by David is a dumb cunt | May 30, 2011, 12:03 pm
    • guy ur a queer and you need to stop hanging on kobes balls becuase they got swept by dallas. they should change there name to the l.a fakers cause thats what they are the defending CHUMPS and tell your mom to have my boxers clean brett ballantyne in other worlds brett hangs on kobes balls any time lmao

      Posted by bretts gay | May 10, 2011, 11:52 am
    • Typical response from a brainwashed Kobe fanboy; when all else fails, bring out the ’5 rings’ card… Kobe is simply overrated in accordance with public perception, and that is a proven FACT. Get over it…

      Posted by FrankPistacchio | May 17, 2011, 8:34 am
    • Memory tells me that no player with LeBron’s skill set has failed to win a title.

      History is on James’ side and he will likely win in 2011-12 (if they play), and probably two to three more after that.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | September 15, 2011, 9:25 pm
    • you’re an idiot…this post shows the stats..and stats don’t lie…if all that matters is rings (like you stated) then i guess luke walton is better than lebron too huh?? one minded kobe fans don’t usually think of that one when arguing

      Posted by mike | December 15, 2011, 4:17 pm
    • hahahahHAAA, i love how everyone says kobes got 5 rings when shag got 3 of them for him.What you dont understand is TEAMS win championships, not players. LBJ has played with one of the worst teams in the NBA his entire career, still piggbacking them to a finals appearance in 07. Granted the heat lost last year but it wasnt bc Bron was jacking up shots and missing them, he was playing unselfish ball like hes done his entire career. And thanks to whoever wrote this article, numbers simply don’t lie. You haters are a bunch of clowns haha

      Posted by viliam | January 19, 2012, 11:15 am
    • your stats are all wrong buddy redo the research

      Posted by bufou malcom | January 19, 2012, 2:05 pm
      • where are they wrong? Provide some clue as to where to start. If you know they are wrong, then you must have some idea as to the where’s and why’s.

        Share your special insight and information with us.

        Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 3:47 pm
    • Kobe has won nothing without Phil Jackson and a big man. His teams have been a 5-8 seed without Phil. Lebron went to the finals with garbage. Everyone forgets Lebron played with no one but kobe has played with fisher, horry, shaq, pau, Bynum, etc. Kobe makes no one better Lebron does. Plus this is about game winning shots not titles.

      Posted by Seth | February 27, 2012, 6:21 pm
      • “Lebron played with no one.” You’re right in the respect that he played against the arguably weakest conference in the history of the NBA on his way to those finals. Where he still, LOST.

        Posted by alex | March 13, 2012, 11:09 pm
        • Well if you were smart you’d know he didn’t lose to an eastern team in the finals dumbass he lost to the Spurs. I don’t care who you were no team was going to beat that Spurs team, so stop bashing Lebron and get off kobe’s balls it has the stench of forced sex on it…

          Posted by Huss | March 31, 2012, 4:10 pm
      • So Kobe Bryant won Final MVP cause Pau Gasol

        Posted by SwagKing Cole | March 19, 2013, 5:43 pm
    • WOW you are stupid the writer wasn’t comparing rings or MVP status he was proving the point that Lebron has a better GAME WINNING SHOT AVERAGE THAN KOBE that was the topic LEARN HOW TO READ DUMMY

      Posted by JB | March 7, 2012, 9:25 pm
      • LeBron is much bigger than Kobe. So it is easier for him to score. Also he is comparing this in the playoffs. Last I checked the West is so much than the East

        Posted by SwagKing Cole | March 19, 2013, 5:46 pm
    • The allstar game ending and the finals last year are why Lebron will always be screwed over until he wins his ring and by that I mean he has to win finals mvp not dwade hell he doesnt even have to close as long as he dominates the first 3 quarters and still tries in the 4th unlike last year where he literally disappeared with little to no effort

      Posted by Raj | April 5, 2012, 11:39 am
    • how many videos on youtube do we have with Lebron hitting game winners vs Kobe? Lebron has a higher percentage cause he wont take them- example: the all star game.

      Posted by e | April 8, 2012, 4:16 pm
    • I think this chart needs to be updated, kobe missed some crunch time shots during last nights game. and i think you need to recheck the miami game against the bulls, lebron might have made a shot in a very close game, not sure but worth checking out.

      Posted by GEE | May 9, 2012, 9:01 am
    • LOL your idiocy is shown then cause this artical is talking about game winning shots not free throws LOL and lebrons first 9 years to kobes first 9 years stat wise lebron kills kobe and he is on pace to beat kobe in just about everything minus titles as of now….

      Posted by candymanisking | February 6, 2013, 6:37 am
    • you’re one of those “writers” who give themselves a nickname lmao!!!! you make me sick kill yourself…this world needs to be rid of useless turds like yourself…you should have been on that crusty rag

      Posted by chuck schick | March 25, 2013, 2:25 am
    • so you are saying that bill russel is the best player ever because he has the most amount of rings? dude you are stupid, rings matter but doesnt define how great of a player one person is, it defines how great the team is.

      Posted by Sam Colasuonno | March 26, 2013, 7:51 am
    • wtf is wrong with you kobe has 32 game winners lmfao

      Posted by andrew | March 26, 2013, 9:37 pm
    • You just proved nothing than your idiocy. The article is label game winning shots dumb ass. Kobe is worse in the last 7 years than the rest of his teams for game winning shots. Is it fun being ignorat? I wouldn’t know

      Posted by Chist | April 1, 2013, 8:45 pm
    • I’d bet more money than I could dream of that in 10 years Kobe won’t be in the conversation with MJ and LeBron lol god Kobe fans have got to be butthurt about that!

      Posted by phillip bouche | July 2, 2013, 7:14 am
    • You are an absolute knucklehead Brett and clearly part of the Kobe walks on water crowd. You said the magic word Kobe lovers have as auto reply for all the individual stats Lebron dominates Kobe in….that word you love is RINGS! This is not tennis, it is a team sport and the rings do matter but Kobe rode Shaqs coat tails for 3 of his rings. Individual stats matter to all sports fans except Kobe lovers. Check out career averages for pts, rbs, asst, or look at TDs. Kobe is great but no Lebron. When Kobe goes to bed at night, he dreams he is Lebron

      Posted by Paul | January 24, 2014, 8:09 am
  2. Your reasons are flawed. THe reason Lebron doesn’t take those last second shots because he doesn’t get clean looks as kobe does. Kobe knows how to get clean looks and he passes the ball when he needs to. The differece between Kobe and Lebron is that kobe isn’t afraid while Lebron is. That makes the whole difference which is big.

    Posted by Jack | May 3, 2011, 2:28 pm
    • Great article. I’ve been making the same argument for years now. @BRETT Shaq won 3 of his 5 rings so according to you Kobe has 2 “stones”. @Jack Lebron’s teams have won more games in the past couple of seasons because he makes the right play. According to you you’d rather have a guy that makes 26% of his shots not be afraid to take a shot. That seems flawed to me

      Posted by HTP | May 3, 2011, 2:39 pm
      • Kobe= I’d rather take a guy that lead his team to 2 EXTRA championships than a guy who’s afraid of the big moments and disappears in the 4th QT and possibly tanked 2 playoff series to avoid meeting Kobe in the finals 2009 and 2010. Gifted and talented he is, but NO heart he has.

        To mention, from what I’ve seen Shaq NEEDED Kobe to get his first 3 rings. Shaq couldn’t get past San Antonio without the play of Kobe, Shaq could have lost another finals (2000) if it wasn’t for Kobe in crucial game 5 of that series. From what I just mentioned, from what I see if those moments were lebron instead of Kobe, looks like the Lakers lose big time..

        Posted by Sparksdaman | December 30, 2011, 4:37 am
        • Look, I’m not going to excuse Lebron’s performance last year- it was miserable. But have you conveniently forgotten Kobe Bryant’s miserable performance against that same Mavs team? He was a complete non-factor averaging 23.3 points 3 rebound and 2 assists yet everyone seems to forget.

          Moreover to resort to ring counting is bush league. Kobe Bryant has had a longer career to date and played on more teams (9) that were favored to win the championship and arguably had the best collection of talent in the league. Moreover, he was absolutely horrendous during the 2004 Finals, played subpar in 2008, and had a subpar playoffs in 2011.

          To date, Lebron has played on one team that was favored to win the championship. He’s played poorly in 2010 and 2011, but magnificently in 2009 and 2007. Lets give him a few more years with a championship caliber team and strong supporting cast and wait and see where he ends up before counting rings.

          You can take the guy who evidentally has heart and will, but misses his shots with the game on the line. I’ll take the guy who makes them.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | December 30, 2011, 12:20 pm
          • How is a player a “non Factor” when he averages 23.3 points a game?…. Not sure if dirk averaged more than 23 that series.

            Posted by DallasKris82 | January 2, 2012, 10:45 pm
          • DallasKris82 – Thanks for the read. However, I think that you need to assess a players’ impact well beyond just scoring. Kobe was a non-factor for the following reasons:

            1.) The Lakers did not win a single game. this alone means Kobe, as their best player, was a non-factor.
            2.) Kobe’s rebounding and assist totals (3 reb and 2.5 assists) were well below his regular season averages
            3.) Kobe’s TS% (which is the most accurate way to measure shooting percentages) was 51.9%, once again well below his regular season average of 54.8%
            4.) In game 1, and with the game on the line, Kobe Bryant missed a wide open gw shot point blank.
            5.) In the 4Q of all 4 games, Kobe was a combined 6/18

            In sum, Kobe underachieved in scoring, rebounding, passing, and defense when compared to his capabilities, and did not impact the outcome of that series positively. For these reasons, he was a non-factor at best.

            But a better question would be to ask you why you think he was a factor?

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 2, 2012, 11:30 pm
          • That is really easy to check, and in the future, you may wish to do so prior to posting.

            Dirk recorded 101 points against the Lakers for 25.3 points per game.

            Bryant had 93.

            This was only four games and since Dallas was up 3 games to none and leading in game 4 at home by 24 entering the 4th quarter, there was no incentive nor any logical reason to play Kobe any longer.

            What I believe Realist meant by being a non factor was Bryant’s very low rebounding (12) and assists (10).

            Any NBA player can score points, but that is only one small facet of an offense which is only one facet of the total game.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 2, 2012, 11:03 pm
          • agreed Paulie.

            Posted by The NBA Realist | January 2, 2012, 11:30 pm
        • I doubt Shaw needed Kobe. He could have used nay top permittee player form that time. Steve Smith, Miller, Kidd, Iverson. Any one of them would have brought the title to LA with Shaq.

          And by your definition, Kobe has only ONE extra ring as Shaq got one with the Heat.

          Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 3:49 pm
    • You obviously failed to read the article Jack – but my point is that Lebron James DOES figure out a way to get better looks and that is why he shoots a higher percentage.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 2:56 pm
    • if kobe knows how to get clean looks, then apparently he’s just an awful, awful shooter because he’s only 6/23 on those clean looks.

      Posted by D | May 3, 2011, 3:09 pm
    • LeBron is 6’8″ and 240 lbs! I doubt very much he is afraid of anything.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | September 15, 2011, 9:30 pm
  3. 6-23 for Kobe? If he misses one more, that’s NBA Finals MVP worthy!

    Posted by D T | May 3, 2011, 2:44 pm
  4. Excellent article. Can you write an article on the massive media bias towards Kobe Bryant? The media seems to be weary of ever criticizing Kobe Bryant. The most recent example is last night’s game against Dallas. Kobe missed that game winning shot, however the media’s focus was on Pau Gasol’s lack of “aggression”. If Lebron James missed that same shot on that same stage, the internet would implode. Also Kobe’s leadership ability. I have heard Lebron James time after time tell the media he has made mistakes on the court and he that he needs to do something better in certain areas. All I hear from Bryant is, “well the bench underperformed.”, “well, Lamar’s head is not in the game”, “Pau Gasol is not himself. He needs to get aggressive.”

    Posted by Vincent | May 3, 2011, 2:46 pm
    • Media bias towards KB. Thats just as far fetched as any LBJ dick rider can throw out there. Kobe def gets his fair share of hype but if I remember correctly who was hyped as the second coming of MJ when he was a SOPHOMORE in HIGH SCHOOL. King James was. Maybe he didn’t ask for it but he sure as hell threw one big damn parade before his first game in Miami so why not accept the scrutiny? No ones saying Kobe doesn’t get his fair share of media burn but to say one superstar gets unfair treatment over another is ridiculous like a fake injury from Paul Pierce.

      Posted by yeezy | May 3, 2011, 3:08 pm
    • This is amazing. I hate both of these players, and I’m getting a kick out of reading each one get bashed over and over and over again!! Keep going keep going! I’m just going to sit here with my skittles.

      Posted by Dupre | February 25, 2012, 2:05 am
  5. all the people who will disagree with this article. will state oh kobe has more rings, oh kobe has finals mvps. well guess what thats not what this article about. it is stating the percentage of playoff game winners where clearly lebron has the edge. kobe has been playing twice as long as lebron and only has 1 more playoff gw, and lebrons percentage is much much higher

    Posted by wcm | May 3, 2011, 2:55 pm
  6. Stats are nice, but beware great variability in the base data. I think there are flaws in assuming that the shots used for analysis are objectively comparable.

    What of a team that doesn’t get the ball into Kobe in the close-in positions that Lebron gets it, say for example from worse point guards, or from poor inbounders? Perhaps there are extraneous reasons why Lebron’s shots were close and (relatively) easy ones, and Kobe’s were not.

    What about a team that doesn’t have other last second shot makers? Shaq couldn’t take the last shot (free throw liability), so your other options come from the salary cap remnants coming after Shaq’s and Kobe’s salaries (sure Horry and Fish made dramatic shots, but these guys could not create their own last second shots – it’s Kobe or nobody) – not a lot of alternate offensive threats, so that means Kobe often has to go 1 on 2, for the best choice shot for his team.

    I say this as a Laker fan often furious at Kobe’s stubborn insistence at doing it himself, throwing out the triangle offense and damn the torpedoes. The master of the “NO NO NO ! … UH, nice shot” effect. Infuriating.

    But my exasperation with the guy doesn’t mask the flaws baked into this “statistical” analysis. The analysis is good and provocative, but it’s not cold sterile science, here.

    Posted by Don Ford | May 3, 2011, 2:59 pm
    • Good post, Don.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 3, 2011, 4:27 pm
    • Thanks for the read Don. But the variables are the same. Both players encountered the dame scenarios (inbound passes, time on clock, etc..) and it sounds like you are grasping at straws.

      The reason that Lebron’s shots are closer to the basket during the end of games is the same reason that most of his shots throughout the game are closer to the basket – Lebron is the ability to generate inside shots that Kobe Bryant does not, and therefore is not limited to lower percentage jump shots. Anything else is trying to over-analyze the situation.

      Also, are you really saying that Mo Williams and Sasha Pavlovic were better at creating their own shots that Fisher and Horry? Both Kobe and Lebron were encountered the same circumstances and faced the same 1 on 2 situations. Lebron was simply better.

      The numbers are an apples-to-apples comparison. I hate to break it to you, but Kobe is simply overrated when it comes to the last second shot.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 4:38 pm
      • “trying to over-analyze the situation” — ??? Odd criticism, considering the nature of the piece. But touche, I guess (?).

        Anyway, I’m not grasping at straws so much as expressing a gut discomfort with the supposed ‘cold science’ premise.

        Kobe probably is overrated on last second shots, and (as I noted) he drives aggravates the hell out of me half the time.

        But, while your analysis brings a great deal of objectivity toward the question, it simply cannot be the final scientific say, because team basketball presents too many darn variables . . . SOME of it HAS to be feel. (And I FEEL like Kobe detrimentally ball hogs at the end of the game.)

        Posted by Don Ford | May 3, 2011, 5:08 pm
        • Thanks Don,

          Believe me, I completely understand the “eye-test” and the desire to go with the gut feel. And to be honest, you are not entirely wrong either. Some parts of the game simply cannot be explained or substantiated by stats alone.

          With that said, the same gut feel that you have that is weighted in favor of Kobe is the same one that I have that questioned him. Prior to doing this analysis, I cannot tell you how many times I remember Kobe missing shots at the end of games and was curious as what his actual success rate was. It is all perspective in the end, but at some point, we need to generate evidence to validate our assumptions. Otherwise, we might as well suspend all judgement and consider every player in the league equal to one other.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 5:25 pm
          • “Otherwise, we might as well suspend all judgement and consider every player in the league equal to one other.” … I don’t think the way to compare players is through simple FG% statistics, which is what this boils down to. Doesn’t mean you throw out all objectivity, but just about every single basketball stat requires some adjustment for context (except maybe a free throw, which is as close to being a controlled situation minus players being fatigued or other considerations). It’s a necessarily subjective exercise to determine the quality of a player. What you are calling “evidence” is nothing more than a recorded observation, it may not be evidence of underlying skill. And yes, that is a subjective judgment. You may tell me that Deshawn Stevenson’s stat’s don’t reflect his skill, that he’s an All-Star, but I don’t have to believe you. But I also can’t “prove” you wrong. And I can look at his skill set to counter that as well. But there aren’t any proofs here.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 3, 2011, 6:30 pm
          • Gil I don’t want to speak for him but I don’t think he’s not trying to “prove” anything other then based on his observations that the possibility exists that Kobe might not be as good in those situations as others and that he’d rather have Lebron in the same situation. Is it out of the realm of possibility that he may be onto something here? Can you at least accept the fact that Kobe maybe…just maybe… might not be quite as good in this situation as his reputation would suggest?

            Posted by Milhouse | May 3, 2011, 6:59 pm
          • Milhouse – Kobe is obviously not as good as his reputation suggests, if that reputation is that “He has shot better than 6 for 23 in game winning shots”.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 3, 2011, 8:58 pm
        • But,”facts are facts”! Phooey.

          You are correct Don, in that this is not cold science. Do you know why they actually use the results from a clinical trial? Because the experiment is carefully controlled to eliminate/minimize any variation. How can any last second shot be an “apples-to-apples” comparison when the players don’t have the same teammates, the same opponents, the same roles … on and on it goes. It’s not even “roughly” apples-to-apples.

          Posted by Gil Meriken | May 3, 2011, 6:23 pm
      • The scenarios were not the same you damn fool. The shots were different, like you admitted. Different shot, DIFFERENT SCENARIO!

        Posted by alex | March 13, 2012, 11:14 pm
    • “…not a lot of alternate offensive threats, so that means Kobe often has to go 1 on 2, for the best choice shot for his team.”

      So he draws a double team, and the best option is for him to shoot it? Certainly, you see a problem with this?

      Posted by William | May 3, 2011, 11:27 pm
      • Sort of ironic for you to double post about double teaming (just a joke).

        I definitely don’t mean that in an absolute sense; that is, while there ARE times when Kobe’s 1 on 2 probably IS a superior threat than that presented by his teammates, it’s obvious that this is the case less than 100% of the time (and probably less than 30% or 20% of the time, God knows).

        Posted by Don Ford | May 4, 2011, 2:51 pm
  7. Checkmate Kobe Nation! Lets see what kind of excuses you can come up with now.

    Posted by Tank | May 3, 2011, 3:04 pm
  8. Also make an article about lebron verse kobe with 2 mins left… 4 mins, whichever you mentioned you would in the last article. To make it the master piece include turnovers which Kobe does a lot at the end of the game due to his predictability, as well as assists, which is what Lebron will also have over Kobe.

    Im only saying this because you know the blind kobe supporters are saying that he does more in the clutch up until the gamewinners when really Lebron would dwarf him there.

    Posted by Craigy | May 3, 2011, 4:40 pm
  9. The fundamental flaw in your argument is that the far majority of Le Sidekick’s game winning/ tying shots were taken in the early part of his (still young) playoff career. In those years, his jumper was so bad he had to drive to the hoop and teams were stupid enough to let him (but come on, we’re talking about Flip Saunders, Gilbert Arenas, Haywood et al). Now that people know how much of a fraud Le Bron’s game is in crunch time (see last two years in playoffs notwithstanding that lucky Orlando shot) his shot making is non existent. NBA history has proven you have to be able to create a jump shot in these situations. Of course we will never know because Le Bron will defer to D Wade for the next 5 years. But, you can still make your shoddy point since Le Bron’s percentage will still be higher. Done and done.

    Posted by You're Wrong | May 3, 2011, 5:15 pm
    • Yes.

      If only Lebron was forced to take 2 of his last second shots against the 2006 Phoenix Suns like Kobe (the same Suns team that was ranked 28th in points allowed) instead of the 2007 Pistons who were considered to have the best defense in the NBA. Perhaps then, and only then, would Lebron have learned the true definition of facing a tough defense.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 5:33 pm
      • But those 2 game winning shots against the 2007 Pistons were both lay-ups.

        The game 5 shot was virtually uncontested as no one on Detroit even challenged it. The closest Piston to Lebron when he made the lay-up was Rip Hamilton and he is not a defensive stopper in the paint.

        Posted by LeBron's Lay-up | January 17, 2012, 8:03 pm
  10. Your reply was basically a non sequitur. Le Bron can’t do the barrel-through the lane last second shot anymore. Now we’ll see what his ability to make and create easy shots is.

    Posted by You're Wrong | May 3, 2011, 5:57 pm
    • Not sure what your assumptions are based on, but 9/11 shots were the “barrel-through”type and his most recent attempt against Phili in the 1st round of this year’s playoffs was no different – he simply missed the shot. So I am not sure what your logic is based on.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 6:21 pm
      • That he won’t get the lay up as easily anymore. It’s no assumption that the shot against Philly was more difficult. Now that he actually has expectations set upon him, he has been less successful, unlike in 2007. If you’re going to argue that the Philly shot was not more difficult, well that is a subjective obversation, that runs afoul of your supposedly objective opinion. Just use common sense, his typical play is an easy set up for a charge. If you’re gonna get on a Heatle’s nut sack, get on Wade’s. Your argument re: Le Scared is flawed, pedantic, recycled and falsely premised.

        Posted by You're wrong | May 3, 2011, 11:48 pm
        • “You’re Wrong” – Your premise is terrible.You are trying to tell us that the league suddently caught up to Lebron after 2 years of multiple gw shots? Lebron hasn’t had that many opportunities. Analyze the data.

          Posted by Chauncey Gandus | May 4, 2011, 4:26 pm
          • Chauncey, apparently I’m right because Dallas didn’t let him barrel down the lane. Thanks for trying!

            Posted by You're Wrong | June 13, 2011, 6:23 pm
        • Well what happened yesterday when lebron drove the lane and threw down on the mav’s where noone and i mean NOONE tried to stop him? The defender stepped out of his way for god’s sake and the game was on the fucking line.

          Posted by Big Nasty | June 1, 2011, 7:52 pm
  11. Let me first start off by saying…this article is a good read and is full of statitics that make sence…now that my sarcasm is out of the way, let me begin by saying….WTF is everybodies issuse when it comes to Kobe vs Lebron… FACT: Lebron took Cavs to highs they hadn’t seen in years, decades even…FACT: Lebron is a good all around player…FACT: Lebron will go down as one of the most influentual players of all time, BUT FOR THE WRONG REASONS!

    Lebron James can be summed up just like this… “He is a good player, that made his mark in the NBA, but didn’t trully capitalize on what he shouldve been and that is a GREAT player. He was too worried about having fun, showing peole up, making a hug specticle, that he forgot what his job is…NBA Ball player! Lebron wears many different masks, he is a fun loving team mate when he is winning, he’s a jack ass when he is losing and when he doenst get his way he quits, tucks tail and runs away. He couldn’t win a title on his own because he is a cocky arrogant little boy.

    Kobe, as much as he is a “ball-hogging, prick” who can be a big dick at times, the man is what you see. You don’t see him wearing a mask, sure he wanted Shaq out of LA and I was pissed bout that but hell look where it took LA, Miami and to a certain extint Clevland. Shaq leaving helped Wade get a title in “South Beach” and helped LeBorning make the Cavs relivant, but trying to compare LbJ to Kobe is like comparing The NBA from 2000 till present to the old skool way of the 70s-90′s Lebron is soft and being part of this generation’s player pool is what makes him sooo “great” in the eys of people, but I guarentee that if he played back in the days of Ewing, Olajuwon, Barkley, Rick Mahorn, Kemp, Jordan, Magic and even a young Shaq, Kobe and KG.. He wouldn’t last as long as he has… So stop with the comparing of LBJ to Kobe, because Kobe is old skool GREATNESS while LJB is newskool Softness….GO LAKERS!

    Posted by Phil From Phoenix | May 3, 2011, 6:02 pm
    • You’re justifying Kobe running Shaq out of town by saying it all eneded well for the Heat, Cavs, and Lakers. Wow, that sounds like a stretch. And when you said Lebron quits and runs away when he doesn’t get his way, it kinda reminded me of Kobe demanding trades after the Lakers went straight to shit after Shaq left and they were barely getting into the playoffs if at all.

      Posted by LBJ06 | May 3, 2011, 9:03 pm
      • lol and also when kobe quit on the lakers against phoenix in the playoffs! purposely losing the series to prove to the world that hes not a ballhog and that the lakers cant do it without him, well they were playing 4 on 5!

        Posted by greg | May 6, 2011, 2:02 pm
    • kobe and kg came in when those defensive guys were near their end and magic? really magic?. thats like saying lebron is in the same generation as shaq.

      Posted by greg | May 6, 2011, 2:05 pm
  12. Again, as I stated after your previous piece, your statistcal analysis is inherently flawed. Not that your conclusion is wrong, but that it isn’t concretely based either.

    These statistics, because of both the signifcant variables in each circumstance, and the extremely small sample size, are NEITHER MEANINGLESS NOR CONCLUSIVE.

    Kobe does often force things too much, hurting his own percentages. At the same time, LeBron tends to shy away from the more difficult shots. If he can’t get an “easy” look, he will pass off to a teammate. That may be the “correct basketball play,” but it is quite often even less successful because so many players fear those moments.

    As an example (and this IS admittadly perception based and not statistically provable), if Kobe were to pass out of 5 or 6 of the lowest percentage opportunities, his numbers might look much better, but his team may not have won a single extra game. At the same time, LeBron has given the ball to teammates in several of those circumstances, only to see them miss the shot. Perhaps they would have been better off with him throwing up a contested jumper instead?

    Ultimately, statistics are valuable for examining our perceptions, and this evidence definitely deals a blow to Kobe’s clutch aura. But any person who blindly accepts statistics like these as the gospel is just as misguided as those who completely ignore those same statistics.

    Posted by Robert | May 3, 2011, 6:39 pm
    • Robert, I disagree with almost all of your points. I believe that the sample sizes are more than sufficient, particularly considering that we formulate judgements on small sample sizes in the NBA all of the time. For example, Michael Jordan only played 35 NBA Finals games, yet he is considered to be the greatest NBA Finals performer ever. 35 games in and of itself may be a small sample set, but the category in and of itself is limited to a small number of games considering that very few players ever play in NBA Finals to begin win.

      Another example pertains to the nature in which Robert Horry and Steve Kerr are considered to be 2 of the most clutch role players in NBA history Yet, their sample size of shots are limited as well. Should we now retreat from our position so that we can defend Kobe’s GW/GT shot legacy?

      The same applies to the game winning/game tying shot. The adequacy of a sample size is relative and 23 GW/GT shots, (shots that rarely occur to begin win) while small in absolute number, is to me is more than sufficient, especially considering that it is more than any other player in history.

      With regards to variables, I completely disagree that Lebron James shies away from more difficult shots. He nailed a fade away 3-pointer against Orlando in 2009 and was more than willing to take it because the situation dictated. Lebron simply attacks the basket to get a high percentage shot and if not, make the correct basketball play to get his teammates a better look. Both are the correct strategy and contrary to your suggestion, I do not believe that you force up a contested jumper instead of trusting your teammates. Should Kobe have forced up a shot in Game 4 against Orlando in 2009 instead of pass off the Fisher? Or should he have taken a shot which has proven to yield a low success rate. Kobe of all players, has fewer excuses than the average star since he has been the beneficiary of playing with some of the more clutch role players in Robert Horry and Derek Fisher. Heck, even Ron Artest has hit big shots. However, they would have never hit them had their star player failed to make the correct basketball play, which Kobe does and should be commended for.

      Moreover, what should not be overlooked is that Lebron takes high percentage shots because he is capable of getting those looks – the same looks that Kobe struggles with as attested by his lower FG%/EFG%/TS%. If Kobe had the inside game that Lebron had, his percentages would be higher. If you look at the tape, Kobe simply misses some point blank shots. Not all of them were contested, and he was not backed into a corner in where he had little choice. Bottom line is that Kobe simply missed baskets when relied upon in GW/GT situations and I suspect that pointing the finger on variables tells me that you are an ubridled Laker fan, which is ok, but comes with bias.

      For years, the public has believed that Kobe Bryant should be the overwhelming choice to take the final shot. Interesting how in this message board alone, the voices are shifting from that position and now claiming that the evidence is inconclusive and that nobody should be considered the correct choice because their is insufficient data.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 7:12 am
      • First, I apologize for failing to note that I am a Lakers fan. I mentioned that in my post to your previous article, but not here.

        That being said, you’re absolutely missing my point. I’m not even necessarily defending Kobe’s stature as a clutch player. I am simply stating that these statistics don’t conclusively tell the story. They tell PART of the story, but not the whole thing.

        In reference to your MJ, Kerr, and Horry arguments: people don’t consider those players as clutch based on statistics. They consider them clutch because they’ve watched the games and seen what they’ve done.

        And to that point, I don’t know that I’d even put Kerr in the same conversation. An even smaller sample size makes his performances almost meaningless on the clutch scale, which requires that one performs time and again under pressure.

        Horry missed many a playoff game-winner too. Most notably, I remember a three in the 2003 ECF against San Antonio that would have won the game and possibly changed the series. Even with all the big shots that he took, it is still not enough to make a valid statistical analysis of it. He was a clutch player, but not because the statistics said so.

        Same goes for MJ, Kobe, LeBron, or whoever else. Each individual circumstance is so very different, that you would need ten times this amount of data for it to be truly conclusive.

        I agree with you that Kobe is a bit overrated when it comes to game winning shots in the playoffs, but there is so much more to it than that. For instance, in a game that didn’t need a GW shot, game 7 of last year’s finals Kobe shot terribly throughout and was widely criticized as having been bailed out by his teammates. But what those people fail to realize is the impact he had with his rebounding, defense, and even scoring late in the game. Despite shooting poorly throughout, he made two big jumpers and a few free throws down the stretch that helped the Lakers pull ahead. Is that not “clutch?”

        In reference to LeBron, you’re absolutely right that he is far more athletic than Kobe at this point in their respective careers. He is also bigger and stronger than Kobe ever was. And because of that, he has certain physical advantages that allow him to create easier shots. There is no argument in that regard. But the idea of the “correct basketball play” is far too rigid by your definition. The “correct basketball play” isn’t always determined by the clipboard or the playbook. Instead, instinct and individual circumstance need to be accounted for. As I mentioned before, Kobe does sometimes incorrectly read these circumstances, leading to a forced, low-percentage shot. And at the same time, LeBron’s single jumper against Orlando doesn’t undermine the several times where it seems he would have been better served to take it himself, rather than pass off to a semi-open, semi-reliable teammate for a jumper.

        Furthermore, let’s take a look at LeBron’s statistics in these circumstances once he starts to age and lose athleticism. Do you think that he, like Kobe, won’t suffer some from of the same problems?

        I am not saying Kobe IS the most clutch player in the game, but the continuous stream of numbers is simply inconclusive. They are only relevant when paired with visual backup viewed by an unbiased analyst. And unfortunately, because of Kobe’s polarizing nature, there are very few unbiased analysts out there.

        Posted by Robert | May 4, 2011, 4:31 pm
        • Robert, I applaud your efforts at objectivity and I am trying to better understand your perspective. Here is my challenge though.

          You are stating that “each circumstance is different”. However, I have yet to hear what is so variably different between the Lebron/Kobe analysis that diminishes the data’s conclusiveness? No one seems to be able to articulate this, yet the game tape is available. For every “variable” that you point out in a Kobe shot situation, I an confident that I can find a similar variable in a Lebron situation. Their shot situations are not much different and at some point, the variables even out. I am still confused at what is drastically different that makes Kobe’s 23 shots substantially more unique than Lebron’s?

          Also, I completely disagree with your points about Horry, Kerr, and Paxsom being clutch because people “watched games and seeing what they done”., This is a major flaw in your argument. Are you saying that those players are clutch just because people say so?This is the exact point that I am trying to make in the article. People perceive certain players as clutch because they remember the makes and not the misses. But that does not make it true:

          1.) If I only watched 2 games in which a player made a Gw shot, I may be predisposed to believing that they are clutch when in fact the only way to truly determine this is by watching every GW shot situation. That same player could have missed his next 1000. Does this make him clutch just because I only saw 2/1000?
          2.) When I watch Kobe Bryant, contrary to yourself, I can’t help but remember the numerous missed shots that he has had in game winning situations and feel that he is overrated. Perhaps you feel differently, which you are entitled to do, and feel like when you watch Kobe in those game winning situations, you remember his as successful.

          Its all about perspective and simply watching the games opens up subjectivity to the discussion. You are fan, and therefore vulnerable to misconceptions and myths since human beings can be emotional instead of logical. This is why at some point, you have to look at the evidence.

          If you want to say that my data is inconclusive, then that is fine. Very few things in life are 100% conclusive, but we can still make educated assumptions and I am comfortable enough with the evidence at hand to formulate that educated assumption.

          With regards to Lebron losing athleticism, I do not doubt that he will have challenges evolving his game like Kobe did. However, Kobe missed numerous GW shots even when he was younger.

          I am not sure what rebounding and playing defense in Game 7 of the NBA Finals has to do with the GW/GT shot comparison I wrote about. Regardless, had Kobe hit a GW shot to win the NBA finals vs a key rebound at the 4 min mark, the GW shot would be defined as a more clutch moment in the game.

          Lastly, I have watched every Lebron James playoff game and I am curious as to the “several” times that Lebron passed the ball off in game winning/game tying situations in the playoffs? Is this fact or perception? I am open to learning.

          Watch Kerr’s performance in the 1997 and 2003 Finals and you will understand why I put him in the clutch cat

          Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 5:29 pm
  13. I am one of the biggest Kobe fans around and at times I believe Kobe seems to force the issue at times. But, while the conclusion by the author may be correct, the statistics aren’t very relevant. The sample size is just way too small. Imagine if a player shot 6/10 on three point baskets during his career. Would we call him the greatest 3-point shooter of all time? The answer would be ‘no’. With so few shots it allows for what could be statistical anomalies to influence your opinion. For all you know Lebron could be on a hot streak, or not. I am not saying Kobe or Lebron is better than the other in crunch time, I just want to point out that these statistics, while very interesting and a good read, cannot be used to determine who is better at game-winning shots. If Lebron and Kobe both shot 200 game winning shot and one had a better percentage, then we could say that player was better. I don’t think there will ever be a large enough sample size to ever determine who actually is the best clutch time player.

    Posted by Kyle Carpenter | May 3, 2011, 9:25 pm
    • Kyle – Thanks for the read. I understand the point that you are tying to make, but disagree that the sample size is too small. We oftentimes make assumptions based on small sample sizes in sports and this should be no different.

      For example, many consider Michael Jordan to be the greatest NBA Finals performer yet he only played in a total of 35 NBA Finals game. Are then saying that this sample size is now too small? 35 NBA Finals games is an aweful lot, and is more than sufficient to create a judgement.

      Similarly, Kobe’s 23 GW shots in the playoffs are more than any other player in history. There just are not thousands of game winning opportunities in the playoffs. However, 23 in my mind is enought to substantiate an opinion.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 3, 2011, 10:23 pm
    • @Kyle – sample is too small. its the only sample we have on these types of shots. i am sure if there were more samples The NBA Realist will put it together for us fans to read.

      to have all the possible samples you will need to do this exact same article when both their careers are over, however you will then advise the play difference in the era as Kobe started years prior. just like how Kobe and 23 started in a different era.

      numbers are numbers as is apples to apples. to try and break them down any other way just makes it more obvious that the Kobe Nation is just looking for an excuse much like Kobe himself “Pau needs to be more aggressive” “Sample is too small”. you guys sounds alike.

      so the only fair thing is to do this when both their careers are over but until then – LeBron is the better man for the job at 5/11.

      By the way NBA Realist; really awesome read, great reading how 78% of the experts believe Kobe is the better man for the job, as i am sure they are all fans and got caught up in the hype and how non experts these experts really are.

      Posted by Logan | May 3, 2011, 11:43 pm
  14. Impressive work on this article. First, let me say that many of the arguments above are completely ridiculous. Rings do not factor into this argument-we’re not talking about who helps his team win more, so take that drivel elsewhere. Cherry picking specific examples where Kobe succeeds and Lebron fails only supports the author’s premise that what we remember is not always consistent with reality. When we say that Kobe’s more fearless, lets keep in mind that Lebron’s not only more likely to make a clutch shot if taken, but on a per game basis he takes more clutch shots. Also, it’s perfectly fine to talk about confounders if you have an idea what their effect is, but lets not pretend like Kobe’s shooting is worse because he’s had inferior teammates-the only All Stars Lebron James ever played with before this year were Zydrunas Ilgauskas (2x) and Mo Williams (once) as well as role players like Anderson Varejao, whereas Kobe has played with Pau Gasol (2x), Shaq (7x), Eddie Jones (2x) and Nick Van Exel (once) as well as championship-caliber stalwarts such as Robert Horry, Lamar Odom, Andrew Bynum, and Derrick Fisher. Finally, to say that statistics are meaningless is in itself a meaningless statement unless we evaluate the statistics themselves, so I will do that.

    It is correct that we have not carefully controlled all variables as one would do in a randomized controlled trial and that is a valid criticism. This methodology is actually a retrospective analysis, which compares two similar sets of data with one significant difference (ie smokers vs nonsmokers, basketball players named Lebron James vs basketball players named Kobe Bryant). These are, while not the highest level of evidence, an accepted method of scientific inquiry when a RCT is not possible. Based on established scientific principles and using an unpaired t test, there’s about a .27, or 27% chance that despite all our evidence to the contrary, Kobe is actually a better game winning shooter. The level accepted for scientific acceptance of data as fact is .05 however, so most scientists would say there is a trend toward Lebron being better, but the data is not conclusive. Or put another way, based on the above evidence if both took 100 game-winning shots, Kobe would have as many or more 27 times. As an aside, based on the above posts people who still support Kobe are statistically more likely to use male sex organs to support their arguments.

    There’s plenty of data to support Lebron’s superiority to Kobe as a shooter in general, too, which is certainly relevant to game-winning shots. Kobe has taken over 100 shots in the regular season with a 31% success rate, and that rate drops to 26% in the playoffs. Lebron’s numbers are 34% and 45%, respectively. The league-average rate for game-winners is 29.2%. Lets also keep in mind that Kobe’s regular season shooting percentage is 45.4% (career) and is 44.8% in the playoffs. Lebron chimes in at 47.9% and 45.9%, respectively. The NBA average is 45.9%, so Kobe is actually a slightly below average shooter outside of the game-winning shot, whereas Lebron is a slightly above average shooter. It’s had to be a high percentage shooter and a volume scorer, but Lebron consistently beats the league average in efficiency metrics whereas Kobe does not. All in all, I would say that while none of these data points conclusively tells me that Lebron is better in the clutch than Kobe, not a single one (regular season FG%, regular season clutch FG%, playoff FG%, playoff clutch FG%) favors Kobe, so it’s awfully hard to argue that Kobe’s a better clutch shooter.

    All that said, there are a number of players who I suspect would likely beat both players in such a statistical analysis including Dirk Nowitzki, Ray Allen, Steve Nash, Carmelo Anthony, Kevin Martin, Tim Duncan, Chris Paul, and even Pau Gasol. If I could pick one it would be Ray Allen, not Lebron James.

    Posted by Lochpster | May 3, 2011, 10:54 pm
    • Well put together, although I’d use something like eFG% instead of FG% to account for the different mix of two and three pointers.

      As for the point that this analysis “compares two similar sets of data with one significant difference” – they are only similar in game clock and score situation, and that’s about it. Just about everything else is different, and that is a whole lot of differences, which is why basketball statistics (as currently used and recorded) are very hard to use to make player to player comparisons – unless you’re making a comparison of the player to his own prior performance, which could be used directionally to gauge his effectiveness, given that he has the same teammates, offensive and defensive schemes.

      I don’t know that I’ve ever used my dick to support an argument. It would be difficult to support anything on it, given its flexible nature.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 3, 2011, 11:44 pm
      • Thanks for the feedback, and you make a good point about about eFG%. Of course, I’d hate to give either player extra credit for making a more difficult 3 when an easier 2 would do. However, I couldn’t disagree more with your second point about there being too many differences between data sets for this data to be useful.

        There are always confounders in any data set, even the most pristine of scientific studies. Similarities in the above data set are that both players are playing the same game, both play a similar position, both are taking shots in the same time frame and in the same score situation, and in both situations they generally have the ball in their own hands creating their own shot. Sure, their schemes and teammates are different and they play in different arenas and different conferences, but I’m not convinced any of these factors change the numbers significantly, and if they do it won’t likely be in Kobe’s favor. Kobe has played with better teammates, better coaches and in a better offensive scheme, albeit against slightly tougher competition out West. And in any scientific study, the burden of proof is on the critic to show that a factor is truly confounding if one is to discredit the argument.

        What it sounds like your argument boils down to is that since the data’s imperfect, we should throw it out and base our conclusions on emotions and feelings, which is fine. But keep in mind, if that’s our argument style and I told you I think Miss Piggy is a better clutch shooter than Kobe Bryant because I say so, our arguments would be equally valid.

        Posted by Lochpster | May 4, 2011, 2:55 pm
        • If “I told you Miss Piggy is a better clutch shooter than Kobe Bryant because I say so, our arguments would be equally valid.”

          I think you’re getting the point. Quality is always going to boil down to a bar argument. And I’m pretty sure Miss Piggy is not a better clutch shooter due to her lack of opposable thumbs and her decided height disadvantage, which are much better arguments than a statistically questionable, uncontrolled, small sample.

          Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 4:57 pm
  15. wait this is bs. what about the 3-4 buzzer beaters that were made by kobe two season ago? what about the tying shot against portland, and the winning shot in ot in the same game. portland isn’t even in your data sheet for kobe.

    your data is flawed and you are stupid.

    Posted by joe | May 3, 2011, 11:51 pm
  16. your reason is correct. problem is you lie through your data. stop writing if you want to keep lying to your readers.

    Posted by joe | May 3, 2011, 11:52 pm
    • Joe – you are a complete idiot who came to the table with wrong information. All of the playoff shots have been included. Get your head out of your ass or come to the table with some evidence.

      Posted by Chauncey Gandus | May 4, 2011, 4:29 pm
  17. in talking of game winning shot you should include all game winning shots.stupid writer!

    Posted by writerofthisarticleisstupid | May 4, 2011, 2:31 am
  18. I’d rather have DWade over Lebron, KObe, meh. Take out shaq, take out gasol=KOBE HAS ZERO RINGS.

    So what if he has five rings, he’s probably not gonna win this year, typical bryant that loses to Spurs after their first threepeat, then to the Pistons, then gives up on phoenix game7, blablabla.

    Kobe Karma for this year, they’re gonna lose to Miami, if they can make it out West that is.

    Kobe always loses to new blood, unlike MJ. Lebron is just getting started, KObe is fading, fading, fading

    Posted by kobeisoverratedongamewinnersthat'sit | May 4, 2011, 2:57 am
  19. First off, I am huge Kobe fan and have a background in statistical analysis. So take this for what its worth…
    The sample sizes are way too small to draw significant conclusions from; but you’ve acknowledged there will never be enough so this article is written with that in mind. I totally agree with your premise that perception in the NBA is reality when it comes to GM’s and players (they probably dont look at these numbers the wat us fans do).
    But here is an interesting slant; look at the younger GM’s that are stat geeks, Houston and OKC. They have taken Money Ball and applied to to basketball and they have fared better against their own perception. Houston without their franchise player has been competitive and two years ago pushed the Lakers with a team of nobody’s. OKC with e young core did the same last year. How? Personally, I think with the amount of data that is available teams are figuring out Kobe and there isn’t a need to double team him anymore. Players know his favorite spots (elbow jumper, baseline fadeaway) and may give him them early on but are sure to overplay them late, knowing he isnt likely to pass the ball. More importantly, if you consider his favorite shooting spots and where his teammates need to be in order for him to have a decent look he has very few passing angles.
    Lebron is just more gifted physically and can create more, hence his higher assist average.
    On a tangent, when you start looking at the overall playoff numbers and not just game winners you start to see mean-reversion (the concept that given a large enough sample size averages will revert to their historical numbers). Kobe has taken 4144 shots in the playoffs and has a .448 avg in 205 games. In the regular season, 21370, shots, .454 avg in 1103 games. If you take out his first two years when he didn’t start, the numbers go up by negligible amount.
    Lebrons playoff numbers are 1629 shots, .460 average in 78 games. Regular season, 12888 shots, .479 in 627 games.
    So here are all the possible conclusions I COULD draw from the above data:
    Kobe and Lebron are no better in the playoffs when compared to the regular season.
    Given a large enough sample size Lebron is likely to miss his next 7/8 game winning/tying shots and he too will be league average 28%.
    Just for fun, I looked at Ray Allen’s numbers for his career, he has played in 1102 regular season and 107 playoff games and has a the same .452% for both.
    Here is my takeaway, there is no such thing as “clutch”. If there were, Kobe would be put in at the end of every quarter to take the last shot regardless if they are tied, up or down because it would mean we expect him to perform better in those instances. But the same is true for most players out there. You dont seen Lebron coming off the bench with 12 seconds in the third quarter to take the last shot. If players were clutch, don’t you think there coach would figure out a way to get them in that mindset for the entire game and not just the end…that being said, thats called killer instinct or the desire to win, and I do believe some players have that more than others.

    Posted by Anti Bill Simmons | May 4, 2011, 7:11 am
  20. This debate is absurd. Give me a break. There are Kobe Haters and Lebron Haters. They both their flaws. Lebron James is a beast, and is the most athletic basketball player in the NBA. On the Cavs, he was the go to guy ALL THE TIME. And just because he makes game winners over teams that have no answer for him, does not make him more clutch. The only reason Kobe has a lower percentage is because he has been their more often, has been relied on less heavily, and when a play goes wrong at the last couple seconds of the game, he gets dished the ball. When Lebron was on the Cavs, every play was designed for him, not Mo Williams or the other no bodys on the team. Kobe had many greats with him to SHARE the ball. So it isn’t fair to criticize the man just because he has a lower percentage. That is how stats works, the larger the sample size, the more variability. I’d like to see this article comparing Kobe now to Lebron in 10 years, then we can see who is actually more clutch despite the enormous difference in gameplay and talent in the NBA.
    And for those of you who think Lebron didn’t “quit” and Kobe complains and always gets his way, think about this: Lebron will never go down as the reason for a ring, he just paired up with someone who already won a ring. Kobe may have complained and threatened, but he never turned his back on the Lakers. He played through it all, yeah complained, but made those around him GREAT. Fisher, Shaq, Gasol, you name it. That is why Kobe is on a different level, it’s not ALWAYS one on one for Kobe. He can sit on the bench and rely on his team, whereas when Lebron and Wade sit, there is no team so to speak.
    Both are great players, Kobe is just more accomplished. I have respect for both, always will.

    Posted by Kobe or Lebron | May 4, 2011, 8:18 am
    • Kobe did not make those around him great. Shaq already was a beast since ’93, and he was the MVP of the 3 finals. Kobe forced Lakers to put him aside, and in the following years Lakers were depressing, until Gasol came. Kobe has great team mates, yet he finish some Play Off games with 0 assists and 27 field goal attempts. He made 56 clutch game shots vs 1 single clutch game assist during 5 years.

      About “every play designed for him”, have you heard the word “kobe-system”? Plus, having great people in your team is a reason to have a *better* percentage, not worse. It’s supposed to be harder to double team you, if the other 5 guys are also worthy to defend, than if you are the only one who can score. Problem with Kobe, is that everybody knows he will *refuse* to dish the ball to a team mate. When others in Lakers make a buzzer beater, like Horry in 02, or Artest vs Suns in 2010, they did so because they take a rebound from Kobe’s miss (or, in the case of Artest, a ball that hit solid air and not the rim). Kobe would rather made a 3 point shot on the jump, with a defender on him, that Artest rebound to score the buzzer beater, than assist Artest to score that same buzzer beater.

      And just one single thing: Stats work just opposite as you mention. The larger the sample size, the less variable it is. If you toss a coin, you’ll have a 100% head, or 100% tail. If you toss it twice, you still have a fair chance to have 100% tail or head. If you toss it 25 times (As Kobe), then the heads and tails go closer to 50%. The larger the size, the closer to the real percentage. This is a basic math law (Law of Big numbers) and being unable to understand this, makes people to fail at statistics. A player with a single buzzer beater attempt, who scores it, is 100%. That is skewed. Once he attempt 100, the real chance appear. Kobe has 115 attempts, with 35 scores, or 7/25 in Play Offs. Lower % than many players in the NBA.

      Posted by triqui | August 3, 2012, 5:41 am
  21. Hey, I like this particular topic, but when it comes to players of Kobe and Lebron’s caliber, it’s not complete analysis in my opinion.

    I’m sure Robert Horry would be pretty high on this list, or Dell Curry, or Paxson, or maybe even Trent Tucker! (I think I forgot Rex Chapman) However none of these guys are capable of putting a team in position to win a game night in and night out. My point is this particular metric for guys who carry the majority of the burden for the their team is down in the noise of their overall body of work.

    I think you’re right, people have a tendency to gravitate toward the spectacular. I believe this is natural. I don’t want to be accused of cherry-picking moments, but I’ve witnessed it enough to believe Kobe can pull it off and I’m sure those who love Lebron feel the same.

    Now in light of Lebron’s recent comments about having the luxury to defer to D-Wade or Bosh in the event he’s having an off-night, I wouldn’t want him shooting anything if he doesn’t always believe he can.

    This is a coach’s decision right? Stats aside. If YOU had to make the decision in the huddle to draw up a play for a player and Lebron would rather defer because he’s having an off night. I’d respect him for it, but I wouldn’t depend on him for that as much as Kobe would wholeheartedly believe he could get open and nail the shot.

    My argument boils down to killer instinct. Lebron has openly admitted he doesn’t have it like Kobe and it’s for that reason alone Kobe’s taking my game-winner. Lebron, however CAPABLE he may be of doing more, just isn’t that guy and he doesn’t necessarily want to be.

    Posted by J.T. | May 4, 2011, 8:55 am
    • J.T. – One thing that I mentioned in my article is that I wanted to select a player who could create their own shot. This is important since clock management is essentially, and a player such as Trent Tucker should not have to rely on another player to pass them the ball. Therefore, creating their own shot is critical and that automatically eliminates Dell Curry, Paxson, Trent Tucker, and the likes. They many have higher percentages than Lebron and Kobe, but if they were relied upon to create their own shot, I doubt that they could do it.

      Also, I think that you are over-analyzing Lebron’s comments about having an off-day. He absolutely believes he can, but there are some days when a player has an off-day. It happens to the best of them, even Michael Jordan. Moreover, Kobe has said the same exact thing on numerous occassions, and often refers to his 2005-2007 days as evidence that he had to carry the load and couldn’t get a repreive. Now he has Pau Gasol and does not need to provide an A+ effort every single night – case in point: Game 7 of the NBA Finals. Kobe plays horrendous and the Lakers still win.

      Don’t know what else to say about the perception of killer instict. You can take the guy who has the killer instinct but misses shots. I will take the guy who just makes shots regardless of our perception of him.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 11:42 am
      • I will take the guy who I believe has the best chance to make the shot based on my evaluation of his abilities, not the guy who has had the best past % based on a sample of fewer than 100 shots.

        They might be one and the same, but they might not.

        Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 4:40 pm
  22. Loved the article. I just had one question. Why did you omit the game tying 2 point shot? Fot instance say the score is 100-98 and there are 5 seconds left and player A takes a 20ft jumper from the top of the key to tie the game and send it into OT. You do not give credit for that because player A could have gone for a 3 to win the game. I understand this and it makes sense yet you give the same player A credit for shooting and making a 3 to send the game to OT when the score is 100-97.

    I guess my point is this. When you are down by 3 you HAVE to take a 3 jsut to tie. When you are down by 2 you can take the 3 to win or the 2 to tie. Most people in any sport will tell you when you are at home you play to tie so you can use the crown in OT to try to win. When you are on the road you play to win knowing the crowd will be a factor in OT.

    I want to know how many shots both LeBron and Kobe have taken (both made and missed) when all they needed was a 2 to win.

    For example say they both had 10 chances where their team was down 2 with less than 24 seconds. Did Kobe attempt 5 3′s (Trying to win the game) or did he only attempt 2 3′s? Did LeBron attempt 10 3′s and make 5 (meaning LeBron won 5 games) or did Kobe take 9 2′s (and then won 7 of those games in OT) meaning that his team won 7 games because he took the safe 2 compared to only winning 5 when he went for the 3 and the win.

    Posted by JZ | May 4, 2011, 10:35 am
    • Jz -Thanks for the read.

      Actually, I did not omit the game tying 2 pointer. I omitted the “concession two” when a team is up by 3 points with less than 24 seconds left, and allows the opponent to score an easy quick 2 pointer (in an effort to protect against the 3), and makes it a free throw shooting game. Don’t get me wrong, those concession twos are important , but not as clutch as the made GW/GT shot which I wanted to remain my focus.

      I included the game tying 2 in all of my analysis as well as the game winning 2, game tying 3, and game winning 3.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 11:27 am
  23. You are missing a lot of shots from both players its not even funny

    Posted by kenneth Mota | May 4, 2011, 2:57 pm
  24. i am wondering why this writer cant answer some of the good arguments written by some of the readers here? everything is just so flawed..i weighed it and it is still wanting. anyway, i only care for the championship rings kobe has and what it brings to me and my place..happiness! lebron? brings nothing to any place he plays..btw, no need for statistics on that coz it shows..what a pity!

    Posted by gagong writer | May 4, 2011, 4:02 pm
  25. you should not name yourself nba realist for you are wrong you should rename it nba fake boy..nba stupid boy..nba where i cant find happiness these days because lebron has no rings happens..

    Posted by gagong writer | May 4, 2011, 4:05 pm
    • And you should get yourself a Thesarus .You’re insults sound like you are 15. Come to the table with facts.

      Posted by Tank | May 4, 2011, 4:34 pm
      • I have a fact (ok, not a fact, but a saying … c’mon I needed a segue): Past performance does not guarantee future results, especially on sample sizes of N, where N is fewer than 100 (I just pick 100, because it’s a “big” number).

        Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 4:44 pm
  26. Kobe played horrible in game 7? You must be talking about his bad shooting night because we all know that’s the only thing that matters right?? Not. He had 15 rebounds in that game 7…more than anyone. And if you paid attention in that series, the team with the most rebounds won each game. Rebounds=rings. And Legone lovers can’t bring up Kobe had Shaq anymore. LeBron went to play on DWade’s team who will always have 1 more ring than him…he screwed his legacy up for good by taking an easy route to a championship…if they get one.

    Posted by Angela | May 4, 2011, 4:14 pm
  27. Hmm. Ultimately, this is about who is the greatest player and neither will surpass #23. No matter how many championships Kobe has, no one had the killer instinct that Jordan had (doesn’t help that Kobe was Pippen on 3 of those championships). Jordan would easily have 8 if he didn’t retire. Lebron is the best overall player today. Kobe’s career is on the decline.

    In terms of the article, great analysis. Though the sample size is small, there is NO evidence that Kobe is a better clutch shooter come playoff time. He does make it scary toward the end though when he starts shooting those long 3s. Makes it fun!

    Posted by ULTIMATE TRUTH | May 4, 2011, 5:00 pm
  28. I’m interested in how you’re going to handle Michael Jordan’s shot chart. I don’t know if you know (because not a lot do) but MJ had 2 “game-winning” shots in Game 5 vs the Cavs in 1989. He hit a right elbow jumper past ehlo to go ahead and left some time on the clock. Then after Ehlo put the Cavs ahead on a great in bounds play, MJ then executed “The Shot”.

    Does that count as 2 or just one. MJ did that a lot of times mind you..

    Posted by Adam | May 4, 2011, 5:50 pm
    • Hey Adam

      Impressive – you are absolutely correct regarding the 2 GW shots in Game 5 against Cleveland and I plan on counting them as 2 GW shots, just as I would have with Kobe and Lebron. You are correct in that MJ did this several times, but only once in the playoffs. The Cavs game was it.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 5:56 pm
      • After you complete the series on Game Winning shots, are you going to expand it to include turnovers? There are a lot of times players are given the ball to take the game winning shot or try and make a play, and turn the ball over.

        I’m not sure how easy that would be though.

        Posted by Adam | May 4, 2011, 9:11 pm
      • You plan on counting them as 2 Game Winning shots? There can only be 1 game winning shot.

        If MJ had missed the final shot, his previous “Game Winning” shot would not even be considered a game winning shot.

        If, inside 15 seconds, MJ and Ehlo had alternated shots, back and forth, back and forth, let’s say 3 times each…would you count 5 of those six shots as game winning shots? No.

        You can’t count shots as “game winning” if you didn’t end up winning the game. Just like you can’t count 2 shots as game winning shots in the same (regulation) game.

        Posted by NBA Realist's Logic | January 17, 2012, 8:37 pm
        • Do you normally post as multiple aliases to try and re-enforce your point? Or are these just multiple personalities that creep out from time to time? How do you ever get anything done at work??

          Feel free to re-read the article again so that you can better understand the GW shot criteria. The same criteria/logic applied to all players in my analysis.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | January 17, 2012, 8:41 pm
  29. This is why I started gambling. When presented with ill-refutable evidence that an opinion is wrong too many people still stick to their previous notion. That equals easy money. I don’t even accept arguments anymore.I simply turn everything into a bet. I don’t always win, but alot of idiots stopped talking sports around me or stopped coming to the spots they used to frequent all together. It sounds like some of them have ended up here.

    The past 3 seasons have been sobering for Kobe fan-boys. They have stopped shouting alot of their previous edicts from rooftops but they are still holding on strong to this clutch “myth” as he adds rings with less than stellar performances.

    Kobe owes his reputation to GM’s who can’t figure out how to put teams around Chris Paul, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Dwight Howard. That time has passed as 2 guys decided to cut out the idiot GMs and do a good job themselves. DHoward and CP3 will probably follow suit.

    Posted by marparker | May 4, 2011, 5:55 pm
    • Hilarious.

      Thanks for the suggestion markparker. Perhaps I can ask a few of our readers to sit down as we watch the game tape on each and every GW/GT shot Lebron and Kobe have attempted in the playoffs. For every made Lebron shot or missed Kobe shot, I earn $5. For every missed Lebron shot or made Kobe shot, I pay $5. And after they continue to insist that Kobe is still more clutch……. we will do the exercise all over again.

      I am pretty sure I can quit my job.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 4, 2011, 6:59 pm
      • To be clear, what I meant was, if I bet $10 on Kobe making his next game winning attempt, you pay me $30. And if he misses, I’ll take the next one for the same, and the next one.

        Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:25 pm
      • Well to make it more in your favor according to the stats, let’s make it $10 to pay out $25

        Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:28 pm
    • If either of you give me 1 to 3 odds on Kobe’s next game winning attempt, I will take it.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:08 pm
    • You must be making a lot of money.

      How did that bet for Cleveland winning the title last year work out?

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:09 pm
    • “Kobe owes his reputation to GM’s who can’t figure out how to put teams around Chris Paul, Lebron James, Dwyane Wade, and Dwight Howard.”

      Kobe owes his reputation to the breadth of his offensive skill set, his height, agility, his athleticism, drawing the focus of a defense, and the ability to positively impact a game without scoring.

      Fixed that for ya.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:17 pm
  30. It didn’t go well. But on the other hand alot of people wouldn’t bet me because of how much I made on Boston in 08′.

    Posted by marparker | May 4, 2011, 7:15 pm
  31. Couldn’t find any takers on Miami this year. Booked one guy taking 3 to 1 odds on the Lakers to win it all. Everyone else is pretty silent when it comes time to bet.

    Posted by marparker | May 4, 2011, 7:17 pm
    • I’m not sure where your ability to find suckers to bet with you proves much of anything.

      If it’s worth anything – I hedged a bet at the beginning of the season so that if the either the Lakers win the title or the Heat win it all, I win. I liked it. I really didn’t think any other teams had a chance. I’m not as certain today, but I’m glad I put it down, still seems like a good bet.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 7:22 pm
  32. Can I ask how it is that Danny Ferry “Couldn’t figure out” how to put a team around LeBron? The Cleveland Cavaliers had back to back 60 win seasons, and Lebron was basically given a roster where every other player was there to compliment him. I’m not all aboard the “LeBron sucks, can’t win rings alone LOLOL” argument, but saying he didn’t have a team is ridiculous as well. Not having another superstar and not having a strong team are two different things, in my not so humble opinion.

    Posted by Aethereal | May 4, 2011, 7:34 pm
  33. Gil,
    Putting money where one’s mouth is proves strenght in conviction. I got sick of people making “predictions” they wouldn’t be held accountable for. Solved that problem.

    AtTheReal,

    Building a team around Lebron’s ability is one thing. Building a team capable of winning a championship is another.

    Posted by marparker | May 4, 2011, 7:49 pm
    • I agree, it proves conviction.

      What I meant is that I’m not sure what it proves in relation to Kobe’s ability to hit game winners versus other players.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 4, 2011, 8:04 pm
  34. The Cavaliers had two incredibly “capable” teams, that’s pretty well illustrated by them having incredible records, and competing fairly well in the playoffs. Maybe they didn’t win those years, and maybe if we did it over again they wouldn’t win either, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t capable. What exactly were they missing?

    Posted by Aethereal | May 4, 2011, 8:02 pm
  35. Gil,
    I was just pointing out that its pointless to argue with people who will never have to admit when they are wrong. It was not actually a comment on the topic but a comment on the commenters.

    Aethereal,
    How many 60 win teams fail to make it out of their own conference and then later on go on to win a championship? I went back and looked very quickly starting in 1991 because i was born in 1979. I found 2 teams that won 60 games, failed to get out of their own conferene, and then went on to later win a championship.
    1. The Lakers in 1998 who went on to win 3 with that nucleus.
    2. The Spurs in 06 who already had a championship with that nucleus.

    My point is that 60 win regular season teams aren’t necessarily indicative of a championship level team. Cleveland’s sub 20 win season drives that point home.

    I believed on those Cavaliers and I learned a lot by watching their failures. At least I’d like to think so.

    Posted by marparker | May 4, 2011, 8:31 pm
  36. well dnt care fck lb stats wise melo has been the most clutch player for a year or two

    Posted by rick | May 5, 2011, 6:04 am
  37. Good article.

    To also add to that recent player poll in SI. Carmelo got no votes. None. That is hilarious. Carmelo has been by far the best game winnings shot maker in the NBA over the last 8 years.

    So its very clear that these players really just go off the perceptions driven by ESPN.

    Posted by JJ | May 6, 2011, 9:50 am
  38. i completely agree, ive been arguing with people over this exact same thing for years. people do not remember anything but the highlights. i also believe its not just lebron, i believe there are other players who have had more success than kobe, yet kobe is clutch in many peoples eyes, and i dont think its easy to change that. ask people why they honestly think kobe is clutch and theyll say watch the shots he makes, not misses or how many misses, just the ones he makes.

    Posted by greg | May 6, 2011, 1:37 pm
  39. i also agree tha melo in my opinion has been better but this is playoff clutch shots, so im not so sure. i also like dirk, durant and a healthy brandon roy.

    Posted by greg | May 6, 2011, 1:40 pm
  40. Kobe has only got his team to win when they are FAR superior to the other team. Kobe came into the league on a loaded LAKER squad that won 56 games his rookie year(not b/c of him), and 61 games his 2nd year and never really had to struggle for anything.Once Kobe got a taste of what its like to be on a team that would not just get into the playoffs or be a low seed, he did not handle it well. Trade request, making disparaging remarks about team mates etc… Winning and losing in pro sports starts with the front office. If you put LeBron in the same situation Kobe had he’d have just a many rings I THINK…maybe more- #harmlesstheorizing

    Posted by IMC | May 7, 2011, 2:32 pm
    • The 2010 Lakers were far superior to the 2010 Celtics?

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 7, 2011, 5:57 pm
      • Good peice.But fact to the matter is if your life depended on it.Its game 7 and you needed one bucket to win the game.Would you rather have Lebron taking the shot or Kobe? Lebron misses alot of free throws in the clutch.Kobe? i could go to the bathroom and come back when he shooting.I cant stand Kobe…But he is far more clutch.I dont care about statistics.If that was important.Then you could say Steve Kerr is a better 3 point shooter than Reggie Miller.Based on his statistics…So you mean to tell me you would put your life on the line with Kerr…..please

        Posted by Derrick | May 7, 2011, 6:58 pm
        • Good questions Derrick. However, I think that you are presenting multiple scenarios:

          If I need one player to knock down 2 Free Throws in the clutch, I take Kobe. However, if i need someone to knock down 1 FG shot, or make the right basketball play, I take Lebron.

          With regards to your comparison of Reggie Miller vs Steve Kerr. If need someone to create a 3 point shot for himself, I take Reggie Miller. However, if you are asking me whether I would rather take Kerr or Miller for a wide open 3 point shot, I take Kerr.

          It all depends on the nature of the shot and game situation.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | May 7, 2011, 7:06 pm
  41. I enjoyed reading this post. No, not really, you are extremely repetitive and use a lot of speculation in place of facts, which shows just how biased you are.

    I never thought lebron to be a better player, probably a better athlete who uses physicality to create space and get to the rim, and with that he may be getting a higher percentage than kobe. Lebron is 6’8 and 250 lbs, wihch makes him a lot more difficult to guard, especially when he goes for a layup or a dunk. Compare that to 6’6 205 lb kobe.

    So maybe it’s not because he is fearless and likes to take tough shots, but maybe it is the better option for Kobe to shoot? Lets not forget that Kobe goes for a lot of jump shots and creates free throw opportunities that he converts much better than lebron. Kobe’s career ft% is 83, lebron’s is 74. Nowhere in your article do you mention anything about any of kobe’s or lebron’s “clutch” shots getting them to the free throw line

    Posted by lakerfan | May 11, 2011, 9:57 am
    • lakerfan – Please don’ take the frustration of your early playoff exit out on me.

      Just to clarify, we are talking about GW/GT shots in this article, not shots throughout the 4Q. But to answer your question directly, no. I did not mention FT for a specific reason:

      1.) During GW/GT shot situations (under 24 seconds), fouls are rarely ever called in a close game, and the refs typically swallow their whistles and the let the players decide the outcome themselves.
      2.) Even if we were to account for rare occassions in which both Lebron and Kobe got to the line, it only happened one time each in their career during GW/GT shot situations, therefore negating any difference.

      Lastly, even if you were to look at their TS% throughout the 4Q which accounts for FT and FG, Lebron is again significantly higher in the playoffs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 11, 2011, 10:31 am
  42. “I have a fact (ok, not a fact, but a saying … c’mon I needed a segue): Past performance does not guarantee future results, especially on sample sizes of N, where N is fewer than 100 (I just pick 100, because it’s a “big” number).”

    No dips, Sherlock. NO statistician says that btw; that past performance guarantees future results. But with a good sample size, the past can help you predict what might happen in the future.

    With clutch data, you deal with statistically paltry sample sizes, so yes it’s silly to predict anything based on it. But remember, it’s YOU (along with other Lakers fans) who make the claim that Kobe is “the man” to give the ball to in gw shot situations. So now you get mad when NBA Realist presents logical arguments that bring truth to the matter?

    Enjoy your Lakers offeseason. Oh, and the mythical “clutch” KB’s GW shot in game one of the Mavs series. CLANK.

    Posted by Bill | May 11, 2011, 12:09 pm
    • Thanks for the read Bill. You hit it on the nail. My post was not necessarily an adamant statement claiming that either player would definitely miss or make their next shot – I can’t predict the future. Instead, it is simply a statement declaring that based on past performance:

      a.) As a betting man, I would take Lebron James since he has proven to be more successful, and there is nothing to suggest that I should take Kobe.
      b.) Kobe has been overrated when it comes to GW/GT shots.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 11, 2011, 12:18 pm
  43. Fuckin idiots. If you’re gona make this comparison then at least include his GW/GT shots in the regular season as well. And like shane said being clutch includes making shots at any time the team needs it and can be in any quarter. There is a reason why the ball always goes to Kobe at the end of games. And its not only fans that agree that kobe is more clutch…ESPN analysts think the same thing because its true. Bring a double team to lebron and hes done cuz he cant drive. Bring it to kobe and he will shoot over the double team and make it. How could you ignore the fact that he has 5 rings? Thats what separates the best from the rest. Being able to win games and championships. What is next? You’re gona say phil jackson is over rated too? That he only has rings because he had jordan and kobe? That he is not a great coach but he just had great players? Youre reasoning is terrible. You always need a good team to win no matter what. Kobe did have shaq and he couldn’t have done it without him and that is obvious but that doesn’t mean kobe was feeding off him. There is a reason why they are the top 5 best duos of all time. It takes a team to win and Kobe won it with his team. Saying that robert horry has 7 doesnt help you in this argument. Horry was a GREAT player throughout his career. He has 7 rings because he helped win those. He hit big shots for the lakers and played great and did the same with the spurs. He wasnt sitting on the bench and getting rings. Kobe Bryant is the most skilled player there is in the game. Lebron might be more athletic and dwayne wade might be faster or ray allen can shoot better or raja bell plays better defense but in the end being the best player means to be well rounded. Kobe can shoot the ball like no other. He can drive in the lane anytime he wants (i know he is older now and its harder but considering the overall career) he plays exceptional defense and the stuff that lebron does blocking people (which is incredible) dont forget that in kobe’s prime years he was doing the same. I grew up watching him and Jordan. There is a reason why NBA analysts put kobe bryant as the closest player to Jordan. Jordan is arguably the best player ever but Kobe is not far from him…especially considering the size and the defense in the years before which was easier. You didnt have guys like dwight howard, yao min, and Shaq, waiting for you in the key to toss your shit. I mean sure there were some like Mourning and Mutombo but overall the size and defensively the NBA has evolved much more. Kobe’s footwork is flawless. He can shoot, drive the lane, play defense, block, dunk contest champion, 81 point game, game winners i mean what cant the guy do? It has been proven time and time again that he is the hardest person to guard in the NBA just because he can do everything and as Pietrus says…”you never what youre gona get” from kobe. If this is not enough here is a video that shows what other players including lebron think of kobe.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anoqbgOZrEg

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IxYZAgKRtM8&feature=related

    Posted by Black Mamba | May 11, 2011, 3:58 pm
    • Up to 2010 regular season + playoffs: 24 seconds left in the game. 115 game winning/tying shot attempts, 36 made, 79 times missed. 31% FGM/FGA. If kobe is so great at shooting over double teams then it follows that he should make a high percentage of his game winning shots. Otherwise your definition of great is flawed. The fact that you used a youtube video as evidence of how great of a player kobe is shows how much you know about basketball.

      Posted by Jimmy | May 13, 2011, 6:20 pm
  44. I’d like to see the same analysis done for the last 2:00 of a game, regular season or playoffs, and teams are within 3 points of each other, ahead or behind. For me as a fan, if my team is up by a point or two, and only a minute or so left, then that is a big possession and any shot taken then is a clutch shot.

    I’d also like to see an analysis done in the same time frame and score (last 2 min, 3 pts or less difference), and see the amount of turnovers, or turnovers vs assists/points. )

    In the end, Lebron may still come out on top. Just from memory, Lebron seemed to be more “clutch” earlier in his career (2005 – 2009) then the past couple of years, regular season and playoffs.

    Posted by Jack | May 11, 2011, 4:31 pm
  45. “If you’re gona make this comparison then at least include his GW/GT shots in the regular season as well.”

    Fine then. He’s shot 31%, league average 30%. And LBJ (among others) outshoots him.

    Better?

    Posted by Bill | May 11, 2011, 5:05 pm
  46. how the fuck are you gona make a comparison when lebron himself says numerous times that kobe is better and the best in the nba? its like comparing kobe to jordan. as good as kobe is…he never compares himself to jordan and always has jordan better. kobe shoots form outside…lebron gets layups. you cant compare that. if you compare their outside shots then its a differnt game.

    Posted by Black Mamba | May 11, 2011, 7:50 pm
  47. To the clowns stupidly hating on this article: maybe you should have listened to him. You might have made some money betting on Kobe to disappear during the 4th quarter of his playoff games against the Mavs, get swept, miss both of his attempts at game-winners, and basically not be clutch at all.

    You also could have predicted that LeBron would just hit a grip of game tying/winning shots against one of the league’s best defenses while winning against the Celtics in 5 and totally taking over down the stretch in the last two close games.

    So, add a few more missed “clutch” shots to Kobe’s column and a few more made one’s to LeBron’s. This article is even more right now that it was when it was written.

    Posted by Isaac | May 13, 2011, 5:11 pm
  48. Thank you NBA realist. It’s amazing how difficult it is to find people who understand the most basic concepts in basketball. The game of basketball is one of alternate possessions. On offense, FG% is PARAMOUNT. Kobe’s FG% is at best a little above the shooting guard average, and he makes a poor percentage of the game winning shots he takes. And don’t forget that Kobe has airballed a number of game winning shots. Every time I make an argument for Lebron and I try to back it up with data, people start saying that stats don’t matter. It is unreal how many people cannot understand their own bias and the ridiculousless of trying to analyze who the better player is by using their memory of plays that a player made. You can’t judge a player by the few plays that you remember. You have to take into account ALL of their plays and stats are a good way to summarize that data. But in the end, people have to realize that winning in basketball is about holding your opponent to a low FG% and shooting a higher FG% (disregarding steals). Whether those field goals come from layups, or turn around fade-aways makes absolutely no difference to the scoreboard.

    Posted by Jimmy | May 13, 2011, 6:05 pm
    • Thanks for the read Jimmy. There are numerous myths in basketball and I have always felt as if the Kobe GW shot myth was one of them. You really hit it on the nail and the problem with fans is that they have selective memories. We are all guilty of this. However, once we analyze the data – very basic data at that – we start to better understand how false perceptions can govern our opinions.

      BTW, this was no different than the Magic vs. Jordan debates that were ongoing throughout the late 80s/early 90s.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 14, 2011, 1:47 pm
    • This is not about selective memories. This is about game theory. FG% is only important relative to the alternatives FG%. So if Kobe shot 6 for 22, but other alternatives for the Lakers on those shots had an expected 4 for 22, then they chose the best scenario.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | May 14, 2011, 4:18 pm
    • Kobe’s shooting percentage was 5th amongs shooting guards last year and 1st among players taking more than 20 attempts… he shot almost 49% from 2-point range but shot terribly from 3-point range

      Posted by Manny | January 16, 2012, 9:50 am
  49. First of all, great, really great article. Well written and very objective backed up with facts.

    I have read all the comments, and the one thing that I have noticed is that no one has written a credible alternative to counter your points. It really is interesting how people (mostly Kobe fans) have not come up with anything but the ring references and other things that are completly irrelevant to the subject of GW/GT shots. They say stats are misleading yet they refer to them when they are in favor to theirs points. Double standards, e?

    The only thing that is somehow reasonable that I could point out is the size sample altough it does not take anything away from the conclusions of your article. It will be interesting to see LeBrons % after 23 shots, then it will probably confirm your points even futher.

    Great work, keep it up.

    Posted by Caleb | May 15, 2011, 12:49 pm
    • Thanks for the read caleb. The last resort of hiding behind rings is typical amongst fans who have run out of ammo. It was not different during the 80s/90s Magic vs. Jordan arguments until Jordan started winning championships. Then suddently, the “rings” argument disappeared.

      I anticipate it will be no different once Lebron starts winning championships, which he is well positioned to do. Suddently, everyone will shift the discussion from “Lebron is not as good as Kobe because he has never won a championship” to “Oh, I see now. Lebron never won a championship because he never had help”.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 15, 2011, 2:41 pm
  50. Hey this was an excellent article. I haven’t read all the comments so someone may have already asked this, but do you by any chance have these same stats on Michael Jordan? It would be interesting to see how he stacks up to LBJ and Kobe.

    Posted by Jonny | May 16, 2011, 10:00 am
  51. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE was in the same category as Jerry West. Not even close. The new players just aren’t as good as the older players who had fewer distractions and more pride. They were men and now we have a league filled with boys.

    Posted by JeromeMJ | May 16, 2011, 11:30 am
  52. “This is not about selective memories. This is about game theory. FG% is only important relative to the alternatives FG%. So if Kobe shot 6 for 22, but other alternatives for the Lakers on those shots had an expected 4 for 22, then they chose the best scenario.”

    The funny thing is though, Kobe’s teammates have hit their own handful of GW shots before at a good %, which means that it’s not that he is playing with scrubs who don’t hit shots.

    Pick another argument, Kobe apologist.

    Posted by Bill | May 17, 2011, 10:32 am
  53. Slash475 – My apologies. You are absolutely right. The article has been edited to reflect the updated data. The overall premise however still remains.

    Posted by The NBA Realist | May 17, 2011, 1:19 pm
  54. Love the article good sir. I have a quick question for you if you could spare a second…would you happen to also have Wade’s game winning/game tying shot percentage on hand? I am just curious is all.

    Posted by Ryan from Tampa | May 19, 2011, 3:05 pm
    • I agree. I have not done any statistical research like The NBA Realest has but I am curious of Wade’s #s in comparison. I am a huge fan of his but also always felt that he is, or has been for some time (06 Finals onwards) the best SG in the league when it comes to player efficiency & game winners. Can give us any insight on whether he really is the best SG based on these parameters? Thx!!

      P.S. Great article, I always appreciate non-biased NBA superstar evidence-based opinion!

      Posted by Rahil | May 20, 2011, 2:14 am
  55. Wow, I’m going to subscribe to this website…it’s great that someone decided to actually check the facts instead of blindly believing that “X” is a better “clutch” performer than “Y”

    I look forward to the future posts…

    Also, great job by Kobe against the Mavs, LOL…but seriously, great job by LBJ against the Bulls, and against the Celtics :-D

    Posted by Walter | May 19, 2011, 3:12 pm
  56. Great story. The kobe cock riders hate reality they still think hes top 10 in the league

    Posted by birdman | May 23, 2011, 10:25 pm
  57. So I think the shot tonight was at about 25.8 seconds but still as clutch as it gets. Amazing comeback win for the Heat

    Posted by Milhouse | May 26, 2011, 8:19 pm
  58. Excellent article, my friend. People shouldn’t let the FACTS get in the way of what they want to believe. lol

    Question: can we add LeBron’s performance last night to his “game winning/tying” shots total? Technically, LeBron did make the shots to tie and give the Heat the lead for good. Bosh made key free throws, but the Heat already had the lead before his free throw attempts. Just wanted your take. Thank you.

    Posted by Wilt_Casanova | May 27, 2011, 3:22 pm
    • Hey Wilt – Thanks for the read.

      I know that Lebron hit that go ahead shot late in the game, but it was done so with more than 24 seconds on the clock which does not fit within our metric of a 1 possession game. Bth here is the thing – I have had a chance to analyze all of the data inside and out and including a 30 second or under metric (instead of 24 seconds and under) and it does not really impact the overall message. In essence, if we counted last nights shot which fell within the 24-30 second range, we also need to count the misses and the overall percentages don’t really change.

      Regardless, I can say this much – the point of my article was to demonstrate that Lebron James was in fact better than Kobe Bryant in GW/GT shots in the playoffs, and changing the metric to 30 seconds or less would not alter my position.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 27, 2011, 8:06 pm
  59. Wow, what a great read. I’m also thoroughly entertained reading the responses you have made to those who commented on this article. I really don’t know how you keep so cool but I think it’s great that you do. Excellent read and I look forward to your future articles. By the way, I am a 76ers fan; not a Lebron or Kobe fan. But, I am rooting for Lebron.

    Posted by Edward Fischer | May 29, 2011, 10:04 pm
    • Edward, Thanks for the read and kind words. I’m glad you appreciated the article and look forward to keeping you as a reader on Chasing 23.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | May 30, 2011, 6:27 pm
  60. If you’ve been watching the 2011 playoffs, then all you Kobe fans would know that he was swept and LeBron has had some of the clutchest 4th quarter performances I’ve ever seen.

    Posted by Hoova | May 30, 2011, 12:07 pm
  61. Yeah, thanks but no thanks. I’m gonna take Dirk over both.

    Posted by Vince | June 2, 2011, 11:09 pm
  62. im not really a stats man. stats are good but i dont follow them 100% in a game of basketball. but just like last night against the mavericks, lebron was doin isos like crazy and it totally killed the heat offense, allowing the mavericks to come back. i know you put in the last 23 seconds and all and i mention this because with lebron being on the heat, he will most likely not take any last shots anymore. he will pass it to dwade or a 3 point specialist like he did in the regular season.

    Posted by tj | June 3, 2011, 9:37 am
  63. So who would you rather have taking the last shot at the end of a playoff game? Kobe Bryant or Lebron James?

    Well the list of hits and misses is a good empirical measure of the two. If that was the only intangible then I’d choose Lebron. That however isn’t the only intangible and if Game 4 of the 2011 Finals isn’t evidence of that, I don’t know what is. Lebron attempted one shot the entire 4th quarter in Game 4 of the FINALS. ONE missed shot attempt by a player deemed one of the greatest to ever play. What was his issue? “He’s playing team basketball.” All of these apologists are making all of these excuses for Lebron when it’s obvious the pressure is just too much for him. It’s written all over his face, does he even look like he knows HOW to lead his team to get to a game winning shot attempt? Doesn’t look that way. Looks like Dwayne Wade, who isn’t bad himself, has more or less said “I’ll do this, because you’re not even willing”. I could understand if the Heat mixed it up a little, but Wade is getting all of the isolations now, while Lebron just kind of stands 26 feet from the basket and watches.

    BTW, Kobe’s 2010 Finals Game 7 > Lebron’s 2011 Finals Game 4.

    So I’m going to have to answer “Kobe” on this one in the end, because it takes more than a couple of winners against the Wiz or a really hot game against the Pistons or a a game winner in a series eventually lost to a better team (where he didn’t even shake hands). It take all of the cliches that everyone uses all of the time. Will, determination, EFFORT…, which all boil down to HEART.

    Posted by J.T. | June 8, 2011, 9:36 am
  64. Your articles are great, great, professional articles and I enjoy each one of them. There are players I love and hate in relativity to this article, but I will not say which so I don’t get negative comments from the haters and/or stupid responses that try to support my post. I almost enjoy reading comments on these articles more than the actual articles just to see how stupid some people in this world are. The fact that people can consider someone the clutchest player in the league despite this evidence, 82games.com clutch stats, etc. is just absurd and hurts my brain to think about. I applaud you for taking what all these idiots say to you in stride and refraining from telling them how you really feel about what they have to say (and what I feel as well). I cannot wait for my statistics to fall into place, and for you to continue to put in the hours of work recquired to inform us the people of your findings. I only wish you had to answer a quick quiz about basketball so that you wouldn’t have to explain such elementary things to people such as explaining to multiple people that Kobe has taken the most gw/gt shots in NBA playoff history despite their insistence the sample is too small and despite they have said for years (when the sample was smaller, ironically) that he was the best. I also applaud you for calmly pointing out such things as “this is only playoff shots”, “this is only gw/gt shots”, etc., which is clearly stated multiple times in paragraphs at times, yet people still cannot seem to understand. Maybe the font confuses them, you should write in Wingdings on Word I guess. Anyways keep doing what you’re doing as I and hopefully others appreciate it very much, thank you.

    Posted by Unbiased | June 11, 2011, 9:57 pm
    • You are not unbiased.

      Posted by Gil Meriken | June 11, 2011, 11:19 pm
    • Unbiased, thanks for the kind words. Its readers such as yourself that makes writing these articles worthwhile.

      It has always facinated me as to how fans refuse to acknowledge the truth, even if it is in plain sight. I guess there is so much emotion and attachment tied with players, that the denial becomes overwhelming despite the facts. Nonetheless, it is amusing to see some of the spins and responses such as “too much variability”, “sample size too small” or “He won most of those games in the end”. I’ll try to keep writing the truth and it will be fun to see the skeptics continue to dance.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | June 12, 2011, 3:42 pm
  65. well whatever happened to lebron wining a championship? haha well we know who’s clutch and who’s not clutch its about determination and thats something lebron will never have until he puts in the hard work to win a championship and thats something kobe has done

    Posted by john | June 15, 2011, 5:00 pm
    • John, Not sure I predicted that Lebron would win a championship, so I’m confused as to your questions.

      With regards to how we now know whose clutch and who isn’t, I think we are actually more confused than ever. Kobe’s GW/GT shot percentages are still inferior, his crunch time performance in 4Q playoff games are still inferior, and he has had miserable performances in the 2000, 2004, and 2008 Finals.

      Are you sure we know who is clutch? It’s not about determination. Its about results and both players have failed.

      I will however agree with you that Kobe has proven he can play well and win a championship (2002). Lebron has not. The book has yet to be completed.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | June 16, 2011, 2:07 pm
      • Only 2002?

        Posted by Gil Meriken | June 16, 2011, 5:12 pm
        • Hey Gil. I thought Kobe was great during the 2002 Finals. However, Kobe’s bar is very high.

          I really didn’t think that Kobe played well in 2009 and 2010, particularly with his low shooting. In 2009 he struggled during critical moments in the game and was 13/39 (33%) in 4Q. In 2010, more of the same as he struggled in Game 7 and went 12/40 (30%) in fourth quarters. He did however average 7.4 assists in 2009 and and 8 reb in 2010 so he compensated somewhat. But by Kobe standards, I didn’t really think he performed up to his capabilities.

          Posted by The NBA Realist | June 16, 2011, 10:39 pm
  66. Great article here Mr. Realist. And I’ll start off by saying I’ve been a Kobe fan for years but a Laker fan for longer…I remember James Worthy’s monster game 7 against the Pistons back in ’88, 36 points, 16 rebs, 10 assists…talk about CLUTCH. But I digress. Facts…ah facts, what fickle mistress facts are. What was it Mark Twain said about stats? “There are liars, damn liars and statistics.” The stats don’t lie and the proof is in the pudding and I wholly applaud the effort that went into compiling this compelling argument. Based on the hard data, one would be silly not to pick LBJ, he’s got the stats to prove it, case closed end of story. But, as you no doubt know in your 30+ years as a bball fan, stats simply do not tell the whole story. But instead of blazing a page and a half diatribe crucifying you for your well thought out and well researched opinion, I ponder two questions as I write this. One, in your article you state that you would choose LBJ over Kobe to take the final shot. Is this a statement based solely on percentage given the fairly significant difference between the two? In other words, is that decision based on stats and nothing but or is that your opinion based on other things such as the two players careers and defining moments up until this point? My second question is this: after the performance of LBJ in this year’s Finals, specifically his lack of production in the 4th quarters, do you still hold the same opinion? We have a saying in the navy but I’m quite sure it didn’t originate here: “perception is reality”. Is it possible that this holds true in this case? Either way this was an excellent article with obvious attention to detail and enough objective statements to justify your opinion of both players…and enough subjective statements to obviate your opinion of Kobe in particular. I especially liked this one: “No, Kobe simply lacked the quickness and athleticism to generate the easy basket.” That got a good chuckle from me. I completely subscribe to the opinion that Kobe takes too many bad shots, but I do believe that’s the first time I’ve ever heard it say the reason he does so is because he’s slow and unathletic! Excellent article.

    Posted by thebman | June 17, 2011, 6:00 am
    • thebman – Thank you for the read and the kind words. Moreover, before I provide my respond, I would also like to most sincerely thanks for your service and for defending our country.

      I also applaud you for your civil approach in debating. I would be more than happy to share with you my thought process, although entering into my mind can be scary for all parties involved.

      I’ve never subscribed to the “perception is reality” philosophy – in studying the NBA, there are simply too many myths that are predicated upon people’s false perceptions and unfamiliarity with the history of the NBA. Therefore, as much as I have relied upon stats to prove my point, the purpose for publishing these numbers was more to debunk a myth as well as substantiate my point, more than anything else. Many people have used the eye test to annoint Kobe as the best choice for a GW/GT shot. However, I consider myself one of the few people who have watched nearly every game that both Kobe and Lebron have played, and my eye test was telling me something different – it was telling me that Kobe has missed a ton of shots in the clutch and that Lebron has been far more clutch than most people think. So, to more directly answer your question, my answer is “no”: My choice of Lebron was not based soley on percentages, but in my opinion, certainly lends credence to my argument.

      Now, you are absolutely correct. Stats do not tell the whole story. But my intent was to use them to substantiate my argument and opinion. So would I still choose Lebron to take the last second shot over Kobe? Yes. Why would I backtrack now? Because Lebron had a terrible Finals? So has Kobe. He shot 36.7% in 2000, 38.1% in 2004, 40.5% in 2008, and 40.5% in 2010. Yet Kobe has erased those memories because he has managed to win. Lets see what happens in the future with Lebron. After all, this is the first year in which he has finally had a strong supporting cast, with an actual #2 – unlike his time in Cleveland.

      Also, it is important we distinguish between 4Q performance, and the GW/GT shot. As I mentioned in my article, the GW/GT shot offers up arguably the MOST clutch opportunity for a player and comes with a different level of pressure than a 4Q shot. It is an independent scenario altogether. To further elaborate, we have oftentimes seen a player struggle for an entire 4Q, but come the game winning shot, gather themselves and succeed. So in my mind, the GW/GT shot is in a different category than shots taken prior to that. With that said, there were no GW/GT shots attempted by Lebron in this series, so it is unfair to guage his performance against a completely different metric such as 4Q performance.

      However, lets assume that 4Q performance does offer us a fair assessment. Lets assume that extrapolating is a fair way to guage whether a player will perform well in a final shot. Kobe was 13/39 (33%) and 12/40% (30%) in his last 2 NBA Finals. Not exactly a vote of confidence, yet there is always the possibility that Kobe can come pack and perform well during 4Qs of his next NBA Finals, correct? So can Lebron.

      Lebron’s performance does not exactly leave me with a vote of confidence, but nether does Kobe. If we based Kobe’s clutch ability soley on the 2004 Finals, this would not be a discussion. Instead however, we evaluated him for entire body of work – this body of work is incomplete for Lebron, but even with his horrid 2011 performance, is still a more clutch body of work in my mind than Kobe – His Game winners and fourth quarters against Washington, his Game 7 against Boston in 2008, his series against Detroit in 2007, etc..

      Lastly, I incorrectly phrased my statement regarding Kobe’s athleticism and I apologize. You are absolutely correct, Kobe is one of the most athletic players to ever play the game. What I meant to say is that “No, Kobe simply lacked the same quickness and athleticism to generate the easy basket.”

      Thanks again for the read.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | June 18, 2011, 2:57 pm
  67. Most of you guys are a bunch of fucking idiots.. you can’t compare any of them in the clutch it depends on the degree of difficulty of the shot.

    Posted by Moe33 | July 13, 2011, 11:51 pm
  68. To argue that Kobe is on the same level as MJ regarding clutch lacks any sort of evidence. And trying to protect Kobe’s 6/23 shooting with arguments like “clutch depends on the degree of difficulty of the shot,” like MOE33 proposed, aren’t persuading anyone. Creating easy opportunities to score in the clutch is part of being a great clutch performer. MJ was better than Kobe ever was in the last seconds of the game. So what’s the reason for MJ’s superior performances in the clutch?

    Kobe and MJ are both on the same technical/skill level. They both have great jumpers and post up games. But the main difference between the two is that MJ was a lot stronger and athletic. That enabled him to fight through tougher/tighter defenses. It also gave him more elevation on his jump shot and enabled him to shoot his shots closer to the rim. Most of Kobe’s last second shots come from around the 3 point line, which is obviously going to decrease FG%.

    Posted by Johnny Lee | July 22, 2011, 2:31 am
  69. kobe and lebron are both overrated but stop using the excuse about kobe and shaq i mean kobe has won 2 without shaq kobe is 2-1 in the nba finals since lebron has been in the league lebron is 0-2 yea stat wise lebron is a much better player but other than that kobe is just better at the end of the day most player careers are define by playoffs majority of the time and lebron just hasnt provin that he can play like he does in the regular season in clutch playoff games

    Posted by michael | September 15, 2011, 8:48 pm
  70. Hahah. Those questions at the end are absolutely ridiculous. Nice job trying to hide a “Kobe sucks, LeBron is better” article, but you utterly failed. And why don’t you write how you actually feel instead of trying to come across as a nice person? I can just feel your pent up rage, lol. Fucking fail.

    Posted by Chris | September 20, 2011, 12:48 am
  71. Honestly, you can just feel the absolute hatred for Kobe seeping from this article. LeBrick for life! <3

    Posted by Chris | September 20, 2011, 12:54 am
  72. I appreciate your article and agree that Lebron has been more effective based on the numbers, so there is no need to debate this any further. However, you can keep your stats because if I am a GM wanting to build a dynasty I would still pick Kobe over Lebron. In the end, your stats are entertaining, yet meaningless when considering the big picture. Why don’t you come up with an analysis on heart and determination and get back to us? Oh, I forgot, that is beyond your ability.

    Posted by Alex "The Voice Of Reason" | September 21, 2011, 11:42 pm
  73. do u still think lebron is a better clutch after this years finals? HAAHAHA its like he read your article and tried his best to disprove it. Your a dumbass for the way you think, its not all about just the last shot but 44th quarter play in general, if lebron played well in the whole 4th quarter he might not have to make a last second shot.

    Posted by Lebron sucks | December 7, 2011, 9:06 pm
    • are you stupid? if kobe played well then he wouldt have to make clutch shots either….if jordan played well he wouldnt have to etc etc, oh and point me to the “44th” quarter of play you speak of?

      Posted by trololol | January 11, 2012, 5:09 pm
  74. I’m surprised that one of Kobe’s ‘game winners’ in the 2000 NBA Finals isn’t listed here. In game 4 of the finals against the Pacers, Kobe scored 8 points in OT, including the game winner with 5 seconds left.

    http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/sports/basketball/indiana_pacers/2000/pacers2000.html

    Posted by Jonathan | December 30, 2011, 10:44 am
    • Jonathan, I’m not sure why you are confused. That shot with 5 seconds left was not a gw/gt shot by definition. The Lakers were already up by one point when he made the basket. Take a look at the tape.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | December 30, 2011, 12:11 pm
  75. I have never seen such LeBron d-riders like the writers on this site… he has taken less than half the game-winning shots and you’re trying to compare percentages- any statistician will tell you that’s assinine…

    Posted by Bz | January 2, 2012, 11:57 am
    • I don’t think it is asinine to use a rate to determine effectiveness.

      It is asinine to assume that using volume or raw totals is any indicator, in of itself, as proficient.

      We conclude that each player will remain somewhat constant with his rate beyond a certain threshold of volume. That is NOT anise, it is logical.

      The only reason that using that rate doesn’t make sense, is that it doesn’t reflect one’s opinion. To do that is emotional, and typically asinine.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 2, 2012, 3:10 pm
  76. There are many infallicies in your logic here, the biggest one being the teams in which LeBaby took the game-winning shots against, really the 2006 Wizards? name one player on that team, and he took 2 of them against them, the Pistons? really, im sure it was tough to get a shot off against them, he has one legit game-winner against a good team and that was the Orlando Magic. Kobe made game-winners against mostly legit teams, also, there is not a better finisher than Kobe Bryant, when questioning clutchness, it should not be full of statistics of just game-winners but also fourth quater points and field goal percentage, which i am not sure of either of the players statistics, but i can almost guarantee Kobe’s being better. Thanks for being an idiot though.

    Posted by You Are Wrong! | January 11, 2012, 11:12 pm
    • is the idiot the one who presents the evidence for debate or is the idiot the one who attacks the conclusion of the evidence while not offering any that is contrary?

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 11, 2012, 11:21 pm
    • It sounds as if you did not watch much basketball back in 2006, so I will help you out.

      You do realize that the 2007 Detroit Pistons had the #1 defense in the NBA right? They also had 2 All-Defense players in Ben Wallace and Teyshawn Prince.

      Also, I can name you 3 players on the Washington Wizards: Gilbert Arenas (who averaged 30 points per game and was All-NBA), Antawn Jameson (All-Star) and Caron Butler (All-Star).

      Does that help?

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 12, 2012, 9:36 am
  77. Lebron sucker and kobe hater!! Omg objetive please

    Posted by Real | January 12, 2012, 2:38 pm
  78. Let me start by saying I’m a huge basketball fan and more-so a fan of well played/coached basketball. I am a Lakers fan but I honestly loved the fact that the Pistons beat us in the Finals because the Lakers had better “players” but there was no denying the Pistons were so much better team players and a better overall team.

    That being said, I agree with your arguement that Kobe is over rated as a last minute shot player, I think in particular, he get’s that rep because he wants the ball in his hands at the end of the game, the only bad thing I can say about Lebron, is that he tends to not want that responsibility.

    I myself would want someone like Chauncey Billups or Ray Allen not only because of their “clutch” but also because if something does happen and they get to the line, it’s almost gimme points.

    Beyond that, I found it VERY difficult to read the comments back and forth, it reminded me of our current government system, everyone having their own opinion, saying cliche lines like “I see your point” “i apploud your efforts” and other lines just like that. Basically stating, I’m write, you’re wrong, but I’ll make snide remarks to make it seem as if I’m actually open to discuss the issue(when really I’ve already made up my mind and there is 0 room for debate).

    Loved the article, just wish everyone could just reason more on opinions rather then saying there opinion is law. Most sports lovers know deep down that the reason we love sports is because sometimes the impossible happens, well if that’s the case, how can we ever make a statement based on “facts” that one idea over another is right?

    Posted by Patrick Cor | January 13, 2012, 11:50 am
    • Patrick,

      I agree with your feelings on this. I can undeerstand how someone can draw that conclusion.

      What I tend to do is try to weed through the rhetorical comments and focus on the ones that tend to use data to support their claims.

      For my part, I tend to offer strong thoughts on much, but I ma very open to debate and discussion provided that someone brings more than just feeling, belief or rhetoric to the discussion.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 13, 2012, 11:35 pm
    • Patrick,

      I appreciate your feedback. It’s very interesting – This article was written last year (although stats were updated) and has continued to evolve with the times.

      When I wrote the article, I truly believed in my stance. It is important to note that while in Cleveland, Lebron was a very different player when in the fourth quarter. I do not agree that he was afraid to the take the last shot – he took 12 of them with the game on the line which is tops among active players. He also balanced this by passing off to teammates during certain instances.

      However, since his stint in Miami began, he has become a very different player. He is more passive in fourth quarter and with the exception of the first 3 rounds of the 2011 playoffs, has been relatively unclutch.

      It will be interesting to see where he ends up. This book is far from over.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 14, 2012, 11:44 am
  79. Watch the fucking games, LeBron has 0 clutch gene and freezes every 4th quarter nowadays. 0 rings, and it’s gonna stay that way for a long time.

    Posted by Will | January 14, 2012, 8:27 pm
  80. Nice article…now can you do one on kobe vs. Jordan ? I’m a huge Kobe fan

    Posted by Kevin jose | January 15, 2012, 7:52 am
  81. everyone wait until kevin durant’s legend grows… and kobe bryant, 4 straight 40+ point games, damn he’s still good… and all i have seen lebron and co do this last week is lose

    Posted by Jim | January 15, 2012, 8:47 am
    • The Heat have struggled a bit on their West Coast road trip, but anyone who has ever watched the NBA knows full well that teams that play in Denver on short rest on the road lose 99% of the time. Big advantage to Nuggets players in that environment. LeBron James is having a phenomenal season, though. The thing that separates these guys form the Jordan, Birds and Magics is that seeming decisiveness on offense; rather than continually, fluidly and quickly move your offense we have clunky isolated sets where James will wait for an opening to attack the rim rather than push the offense and force the defense to catch up.

      Bryant is playing well. His FG% is close to a career high and he is still getting to the line at at very high rate. What disturbs me about Bryant’s season is that he seems determined to keep his average up no matter what. He is taking an unbelievably large number of shots; will this have a negative impact as the season progresses? He is advancing in age and has log a lot of minutes; what will his play be like come April and what will be the condition fo the Laker’s locker room?

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 15, 2012, 12:00 pm
  82. If I see another comment about rings I think I might start making bad Lord of the Rings puns in response to them.

    Posted by Adam Koscielak | January 15, 2012, 8:53 am
  83. …after all that. I’m pretty sure 90% of people would feel more confident with KOBE BRYANT shooting the last shot. Lebron is named LeBrick and LeChoke for a reason. Kobe took more shots so obviously he’s gonna miss more. That is simple math.

    Posted by Alex Kwong | January 15, 2012, 5:58 pm
    • I am sure that I would rather have the guy making the best CHOICE with the ball.

      Right now, that is neither Kobe nor LeBron.

      Probably Chris Paul.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 15, 2012, 7:29 pm
    • You got me Alex. You’re right – if 90% of people advocate something, its gotta be true. In fact, now that I think about it, over the past 100 years, 90% of citizens within Germany, Turkey, and Cambodia supported mass genocide at one time or another, so they MUST have been right!

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 15, 2012, 9:03 pm
  84. Didn’t Kobe make 3 game winners last season alone?? I’d take Kobe any day over Lebron…

    Posted by Russell | January 16, 2012, 12:32 am
  85. The truth is, according to stats is that neither Kobe or LebRon are good at making game winning shots, and Carmelo is. Carmelo’s percentage for GT/GW shots is like 44% and he’s took a good amount of them…Kobe’s overrated when it comes to GW shots but LeBron is no better…Teams should just run a play at the end of games instead of giving it to your star… unless you got Melo-MAN!!!

    Posted by Manny | January 16, 2012, 9:22 am
  86. Kobe is an assassin. Kobe is the alpha dog. And all the players in the NBA know it. Don’t believe me?
    Go watch the Olympic Championship game vs Spain.
    When the game got tight at the end, who got the ball over and over?
    Lebron, DWade, ALL of them deferred to Kobe Bryant.
    They know what’s up.

    Posted by Muddywood | January 17, 2012, 7:49 pm
    • Thanks Muddywood, but do you really need to resort to the Olympics – where players are typically putting no more than 75% effort – to illustrate your point? Couldn’t you stay with NBA games?

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 17, 2012, 8:34 pm
      • You may also want to check the overall numbers from the Olympics. Kobe was far from the best offensive choice.

        Whether or not the others deferred to him is largely interpretive.

        Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 17, 2012, 8:40 pm
    • I hate to pile on, but the Kobe 2008 Olympic argument is utterly ridiculous. Dwyane and LeBron had much better numbers than Kobe. They both shot over 60% from the field in the Olympics while Kobe was under 50%. LeBron also had almost TWICE as many rebounds, assists, blocks, and steals than Kobe. Wade only took 70 shots and LeBron only took 83 shots. Kobe took 104 shots but STILL was outscored by the other two. Perhaps they felt sorry for Kobe and they let him take shots so his boxscore wasn’t completely embarrassing.

      Posted by Pete Genova | January 19, 2012, 10:52 am
      • Yeah, all Kobe did was lock down the opposing team’s best wing and take all the clutch, crunch-time shots. And ignoring that, what happened when they tried to build an Olympic team around Lebron? As usual, they choked, earning only Bronze.

        Second, your criteria are stupidly arbitrary. Kobe’s mass of amazing regular-season shots are ignored, not because they aren’t clutch, but because they don’t match the narrative you want to establish. Why not just choose NBA Finals shots, or Game-7 shots, if we’re going to pick the absolute MOST pressure-filled situations? Because, again, it doesn’t fit the narrative you want.

        Finally, your actual analysis is hilarious. Once you’ve attempted to establish some statistical superiority(again, picking only a situation where Lebron’s numbers actually look good and ignoring things like airballed FTs) you then try to give credit to Lebron for both travelling/offensive fouling his way to game-winning layups, and passing on game-winning jumpers because he can’t shoot. Those are two problems:
        1. Lebron doesn’t play by NBA rules. He travels. He charges. He lowers his shoulder on every drive and never gets an offensive foul. So congrats for hitting a layup when the refs let you play like its the NFL, but those plays do not compare to a 16-foot stepback jumper with Ray Allen in your grill.
        2. Kobe has also passed on many game-winning shots, but you give him absolutely no credit. You rave about Lebron passing to Donyell Marshall because he’s such an amazing teammate, but say nothing about Kobe’s.

        Author bias is the primary reason for completely flawed analysis in every sphere of life, and this is no different. If you want to prove anything, you can nitpick some statistics to do so. And you can pretend to know the inner-workings of a player’s mind, again, to prove something you want to prove. But all it does is demonstrate your bias, which taints everything else.

        Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 12:39 pm
        • Actually, I already addressed his poor regular season clutch shooting as well:
          http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

          Moreover, I stand by my position – playoff game winners are far more pressure packed than regular season game winners, and have much harsher consequences for failures.

          Lastly, Lebron was never called for travel or offensive on his baskets – you must have been watching a different game? Moreover, even if he has somehow figured out a way to avoid travel calls, avoid fouls, yet make baskets, why wouldn’t you take him?

          Posted by The NBA Realist | January 19, 2012, 1:03 pm
          • First, your other article says that Kobe’s skill can only be matched by, among others, Lebron. That is a joke. Lebron’s jumper sucks, and his D is 100% predicated upon athleticism. For that alone you have no standing to argue Kobe vs. Lebron.

            Second, you fall into the same exact trap that other jokes do; taking a stat and pretending that you can extrapolate all information you want from it. But every argument you and Abbot make are deeply flawed specifically BECAUSE you only care about numbers. But numbers without context mean nothing. Go watch baseball if all you care about it numbers. (Abbot, btw, also defined “Clutch” in a ridiculously narrow way and provided no context for his numbers: final 24 seconds of a game when tied or trailing by two or fewer points. Down 3, not clutch? 31 seconds left, not clutch? What about a game winner that is matched, then hits a second game winner, does that count twice? Nope. Give me a break).

            Third, just because Lebron isn’t called for offensive fouls or travels doesn’t mean he did not commit them. He did, and your argument proves my point exactly. Being allowed to cheat does not make you clutch, it makes you a cheater.

            Finally, you can complain all you want about how unfair Kobe’s perception is vs. Lebron’s. That’s what happens when you win rings. Lebron has had plenty of Allstars and HOFers to play with, and still has 0 championships, and all the excuses in the world don’t change that. He’s getting older while the younger players in the league that are better than him(Rose, Durant, Bynum) get ready to pass him by. People should stop talking about Kobe’s window closing and start talking about Lebron’s.

            Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 1:24 pm
          • Could you also explain how a player can commit a foul and not be called for a foul?

            Isn’t that like a player scoring a basket but not getting credit for scoring a basket?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 1:41 pm
        • Can you provide a list of Kobe’s “Amazing Game Winning Shots”? Please provide the dates and opponents and final score, as well.

          Could then explain what your criteria is for “amazing shot”.

          Do you have nay comparison to Kobe’s “amazing shots” against any other great NBA player?

          Are you seriously using Ray Allen as an example of defensive obstruction?

          Can also list all of the “game winning shots that Kobe has passed on”? Again, please cite the dates and opponents and also the beneficiary of that Kobe’s selfless act.

          Lastly, is it a “narrative” when you ASK a question, define your parameters, then provide the evidence? Or is a narrative deciding what the answer is and then providing unsupported rhetoric that neither proves nor disproves anything?

          Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 1:35 pm
          • Sure, let me spend the next week looking up the stat line for every game Kobe has ever played. Let me go ahead and do that for you. Just wait here.

            24 seconds is arbitrary because you’re saying that 25 seconds isn’t clutch. It has nothing at all to do with the shot clock, and everything to do with pressure. Shots in the last minute of a game are high-pressure, and setting the bar at 24 seconds doesn’t demonstrate that.

            Ray Allen in the last several playoffs has played excellent defense against a variety of wing scorers. And because he and Kobe have similar speed, it is an exciting matchup. The only way you could complain about me using Ray as an example is if you haven’t actually watched much playoff basketball.

            I could post the video of him hitting a 3 over Wade for the win, but that obviously wasn’t clutch or high-pressure since it wasn’t the playoffs. Similarly, being down 3 against the Blazers and hitting a 3 and FT to win doesn’t count because, again, regular season and they were down 3, not 2. Do you see where I’m going with this? Choosing a narrow scenario does not give the full-picture of Kobe’s clutchness, and I understand why a defender of Lebron would do so; Lebron doesn’t hit big shots.

            And all of this is ignoring the extremely small sample size of Lebron’s “Clutch” shots. Kobe has shots hundreds of game winners and clutch 4th-quarter; literally HUNDREDS. Lebron has taken very, very few. So Lebron’s “Success” rate(aka 4 layups) can easily be attributed to randomness because there are so few shots he’s taken. Any real analysis would leave Lebron completely off the list because he hasn’t attempted enough clutch shots to provide a reliable sample.

            And a second finally, none of this speaks to the difficulty of Kobe’s game-winners, which is a hugely important factor. Kobe is double-or-triple teamed on every game-winner, and for good reason. Lebron is left 1v1, or given 4 feet of cushion to work with, because the opponent is daring him to hit a jumper, knowing he can’t. The DEGREE of clutchness is defined by the degree of difficulty, and a simple “FGA/FGM” statistical analysis has no chance of providing that context, which is vital.

            All of which goes to show how stupid it is to make a statistical analysis of clutch shots. Players, coaches, GMs, and fans all say Kobe is the best because their eyes are less-flawed than someone else’s cherry-picked numbers.

            Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 1:57 pm
        • Could you explain how setting the parameters of 24 seconds based upon an NBA rule (possession clock) as “stupid” or “arbitrary”.

          How is that parameter NOT logical?

          Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 1:37 pm
        • LMAO you would be lavishing praise on the author and thanking him for bringing a factual argument to the table telling the world how awesome Kobe is if the stats were reversed. Pretty much the same deal for every other Kobe fanboy on this site.

          Posted by Milhouse | January 19, 2012, 1:55 pm
          • First, Thrillho, don’t put words in the mouths of other people, or pretend that you know them.

            Second, your jealousy is just palpable in your writing. Like every other Kobe hater, you try to find statistical ways to discount him, but all he does is win and win and win. Lebron? 2 Finals in 8 years is pathetic, especially when Wade had to drag him to them last year. And being 0-2 is even worse. What a big-time performer!

            Nobody has ever accused Kobe of disappearing in a big game, and the same cannot be said of Lebron. Worship whatever stats you want, it doesn’t change reality.

            Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 2:26 pm
          • “don’t put words in the mouths of other people, or pretend that you know them.”

            LMAO hypocrite much? I’m not jealous of anything. Nor do I hate Kobe or am even a fan of Lebron. Everything you’ve posted is an assumption and have brought no facts to the table other then the inane rambling of a typical Kobe fanboy similar to many others of that have already commented. Facts are facts, and the facts being discussed here are that Kobe is 7/25 and Lebron is 5/12. Period.

            Posted by Milhouse | January 19, 2012, 2:40 pm
          • Actually, wasn’t Kobe accused of vanishing in Game & against Phoenix and Game #3 and 4 last against Dallas and games #3, 4 and 5 against Detroit in 2004?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 3:43 pm
          • Kobe wasn’t accused of vanishing, he was accused of intentionally not shooting to prove to Phil Jackson how much the team needed him. Massive difference.

            And Thrillho, numbers aren’t facts. They’re a representation of facts; often a poor representation. And then, you and the author pick which stats you want to keep and which to ignore.

            But if you can’t handle thinking about the context of the stats and the arbitrariness of which stats to select, then cling to those stats and pretend they’re “Facts”.

            While ignoring 5-7 and 0-2.

            Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 3:53 pm
  87. Great writing and excellent analysis! It’s important to look at reality than to be misguided by perceptions.

    Posted by Pete Genova | January 19, 2012, 10:37 am
    • Pete,

      Thank you for the positive feedback. There are a number of myths throughout the NBA and we will begin debunking them one by one as the season moves along.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 19, 2012, 12:56 pm
  88. Finally someone tells it the way it is. Facts are people hate Lebron for no reason, and try to find ways to demean him, because they are enamored with other NBA players. No player in the NBA is perfect, even MJ said he himself is not perfect. I think how funny it is that everyone remember’s Kobe Bryant goods, and remember’s only Lebron James bads. One more thing, Lebron and Kobe have two different NBA games, Kobe is “The Scorer” of LAL he’s the one taking all the shots, Lebron is the point, big man, and guard all rolled into one. Lebron James reputation as “Clutch” is do to the fact that the General Public has made Lebron James the villain of the NBA.

    Posted by Mathieu Dufour | January 19, 2012, 3:35 pm
    • So many flaws.

      Kobe has been first team all-defense nine times, and second team twice. That’s more than even MJ, in an era where the rules for defense are stricter. So he isn’t just some “Scorer”. Again, this is someone trying to pigeon-hole Kobe as some rogue-gunner who’s only out for points when it’s just not true.

      Lebron was un-clutch long before he backstabbed Cleveland on national television(which is when he became “The villain”). He established his un-clutchness by disappearing against Boston, getting swept by San Antonio, and winning multiple MVPs without a single ring.

      When Lebron carries a team of Kwame, Smush, Slava, and Sasha to 45 wins and 3 playoff wins, then he can complain about how unfair things can be. All he’s had his multiple All-Stars and 0 rings to show for it.

      Posted by Burn1nMyLight | January 19, 2012, 3:59 pm
  89. As much as I agree with you on the data (and I’ve been a Laker fan all my life) wouldn’t you agree that Kobe’s game winning shots are much more difficult than most, hence the title of the Closer. I know you went over this in your article but hear me out. If there’s 10 seconds left on the clock, I’d put my money in LBJ over Kobe easily, cuz Bron can get to the rim, pull up, or make the pass. But if theres 2 secs left and you’re down by two, isn’t Kobe the obvious choice?

    I’m not trying to argue your point, which is rock solid. Just trying to help solve the mystery of why people think Kobe is the most clutch.

    Posted by Arthur | January 19, 2012, 4:52 pm
    • Arthur, you make a very fair point. With less than 2 seconds left, I would take Kobe as well. He is best tough shot maker in the NBA. However, the bulk of GW shot opportunities afford more than 2 seconds, therefore making Lebron a better overall option.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 19, 2012, 5:45 pm
  90. Very interesting article, I would have like to see Melo and wade’s number up there to see who’s most clutch. I’m a big laker fan but a basketball fan first so this isn’t upsetting, it’s stats. I’m just wondering why you stuck exclusively with playoff games?, in my opinion your clutch if you hit game winning shots period, regardless of whether it’s a playoff game or not. I find it hard to believe a player who hits game winning shots is going to fail because it’s the ” playoffs”. But good article nonetheless.

    Posted by Ahmed | January 19, 2012, 6:15 pm
    • Ahmed, Thanks for the read.

      I chose playoff games instead of regular season games for the following reason: I excluded the regular season because quite honestly, the consequences for failure are not nearly as high. If you miss a GW/GT shot and lose a game during the regular season, it is only one of 82 games. However, if you miss and lose during the playoffs, it can change the entire momentum of your season. In sum, the stakes are much higher.

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 20, 2012, 1:06 pm
  91. I enjoyed this article. I am a major Kobe fan and am not so much of a Lebron lover. But the stats in the playoffs speak for themselves. After reading the article and some comments I have a few questions or concerns…
    1. I agree if there is 5 seconds or more, Lebron is simply the toughest person to stay in front of and deny a lane to the hoop. His quickness and size allow him to blow by his defender and give himself a higher percentage shot attempt. My question is simply this, Are Lebrons missed game winners actual jump shots? And from how far away? What is his percentage of shooting the game winning shot outside of the key?

    2. Why would regular season not be included? I understand the additional pressure of the Playoffs, but I would like to see an Overall comparison, not simply the playoffs. I know that would mean much more work for you, but it would give a more full comparison between these two amazing and dynamic players.

    Posted by Matt | January 19, 2012, 9:40 pm
    • I could offer a supposition regarding not including regular season games:

      Most insightful coaches and players don’t truly care about the regular season as much as the playoffs. Aside from the very obvious reasons, the inconsistency of the scheduling and the length of road trips combined with nagging injuries offer variances of instability within the sample.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 19, 2012, 10:03 pm
    • Matt,

      Thank you for the kind words. Lebron’s missed shots were actually a mix of desperation jumpers and drives to the basket. for example, he attempted a 1/2 court heave against Orlando in 2009. Then, in 2011 against Phili, he tried to attack the basket, but missed.

      To answer your second question, I excluded the regular season because quite honestly, the consequences for failure are not nearly as high. If you miss a GW/GT shot and lose a game during the regular season, it is only one of 82 games. However, if you miss and lose during the playoffs, it can change the entire momentum of your season.

      Henry Abbot did an analysis of regular season as well, and unfortunately for Kobe, it does not paint a much prettier picture. Feel free to read my article and the link embedded:
      http://chasing23.com/the-myth-of-playoff-kobe/

      Posted by The NBA Realist | January 20, 2012, 1:05 pm
  92. Well done – I could not agree more, NBA Realist. Clearly you are not writing this to merely satisfy yourself by proving a point(i.e. Lebron > Kobe), but you are acting to shed light on the mere truth and touch on the agendas of the media. You know your ball.

    I have also taken some time, myself, to compile crunchtime data and explain how the results often conflict with general public perception. Let me know what you think (if you have time): http://www.keeperofthecourt.com/2012/01/17/the-clutch-phenomenon-and-the-labels-overusage/

    Posted by Billy Hoyle | January 20, 2012, 2:57 pm
  93. This page is a joke. I personally remember like 8 other game winning shots kobe made that aren’t on this list. In 2010 he had like 6 game winning shots, NONE of which show up here. In 2004 he had a game tying 3 and game winning 3 over Portland to end the season, also not on here. I also remember one over the Hornets in the early 2000′s. Those are just what I remember over the last 10 years. I am sure there is at least 5-10 I do not remember. STOP TAINTING THE STATS. That’s pathetic of you.

    Posted by Dale | January 23, 2012, 1:04 pm
  94. Are they all 2 point FGAs? Obviously not. Wouldn’t you have to break that down for it to be apples-to-apples? You wrote that LeBron can get the easier shot, but aren’t plays drawn up on the sidelines? Doesn’t the coach decide, “Hey, go for the 3″ vs. “go for the 2?”

    You brought up that 1 of LeBron’s 5 makes was a jumper because he only had a second left on the clock — so, a jumper becomes the right play when you have 1 second left?

    Have you read Moneyball’s Michael Lewis’ article on Shane Battier? Here’s the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/15/magazine/15Battier-t.html?pagewanted=all

    I found this article to be very interesting. Shane Battier has literally zero stats, yet he impacts the game. He boxes out players so his teammates can get the ball. He defends the other team’s best player. He is smart.

    So, in that way, I believe we (the basketball audience) also factor in the other factors that may not be visible from the stats you pointed out. Your representation of Kobe’s 23 games or Lebron’s 12 games certainly don’t tell a better story for me than having watched all of Kobe’s games and some of LeBron’s. Nice try though.

    Since you are using statistics, then you must be familiar with words such as factors and variables. Shaq was a factor. For sure. Derek Fisher and Robert Horry were factors as well, and so has Kobe been. Coaching? Yeah, seems to be important.

    To dismiss all the factors and variables and say that I have proven that LeBron is better in clutch situations than Kobe is imperfect mathematically. And perhaps that’s why basketball is so entertaining because numbers might say one player is better, yet Wes Welker or Tom Brady prove themselves to be champions. I’m sure Michael Vick shredded Tom Brady at The Combine — and it’s not too late to jump on Vick’s bandwagon. Wow! His athleticism.

    But, it’s more than athleticism. That’s not the only factor. LeBron has probably proven that more than anyone else. To be so individually talented and yet not able to win and to move to another team to win is pretty much a declaration that it takes more than an individual, an individual effort, or the ability to make a game winning shot to make a champion. That’s cool with me. I think Kobe learned that after Shaq left. He had a few hard years until Gasol joined the team, and he learned the value of teammates.

    You could also look at these statistics another way. We don’t have the data (or at least I don’t) of how many times Kobe has made the right basketball play or been successful — and that’s why the rings are relevant, because he has been pretty successful — we can say that he missed 18 shots. During yesterday’s radio broadcast, John Ireland noted that Collison didn’t throw up a full-court shot at the end of the quarter. Mychal Thompson said: “There are players who worry about their stats, but #24 isn’t one of them.” I guess maybe Kobe should be a little bit more careful because he wouldn’t want his stats to “look like ass compared to LeBron’s” — though, since he’s passed some pretty great players in points scored, I guess you all have pretty high hopes for LeBron.

    Posted by RPD | January 23, 2012, 2:56 pm
    • To say that #24 is not concerned about his stats is utter nonsense.

      NO player in the NBA today probably cares MORE about his statistics and his image of the self applied “Black Mamba” then Kobe Bryant.

      Read the piece that Michael Wilbon wrote about Kobe getting his feathers ruffled by only being selected as the seventh best player in the NBA today

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 23, 2012, 3:45 pm
      • Personally – and correct me if I’m wrong here – I find it rather amusing that some Kobe Bryant fans are STILL using the flawed “rings argument” to argue why he’s better than another player, all while whining about the lack of support from Kobe’s teammates on this current struggling Lakers squad. It’s like they want to (correctly) argue that wins and losses in team sports is only a function of a team’s performance (“Kobe can’t win games by himself, others need to step up!”), yet they still insist on reducing an objective comparison between Kobe Bryant and other players to team accomplishments (“rings”!). Can’t have it both ways.

        By the way, this is a great article, The NBA Realist. I would comment that the whole premise of clutch shots is highly overvalued by casual basketball fans in the first place, but that’s another story.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | January 24, 2012, 4:20 am
      • Seriously did you look at other peoples reactions everyone who thought they were better than their rankings said something stop having selective memory. Of course he’ll say something his goal is to be the best.

        A side note Black Mamba has gotta be the best nickname I’ve heard a current basketball player give himself. LeBron proclaimed himself the King when he hasn’t conquered anything but stat sheets. show me a ring and he’ll maybe be a duke. How you a king when teammates are humping your mom. By the way don’t know if you’re a LeBron fan, but you give off this I hate Kobe because i wish i was him thing.

        Posted by J | January 30, 2012, 7:42 pm
        • Black Mamaba would be a very cool nickname, if someone else had given it to him.

          It’s pretty lame to self apply a nickname.

          See, Johnson, Magic or Man, Ice, or Walker, Sky

          The point I was refuting is that of a previous post implying that Kobe was somehow immune to what the court of public opinion is.

          And could you work on that grammar thing? It’s hard to understand what you are trying to convey.

          Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 30, 2012, 9:31 pm
    • Realist is DISMISSING other relevant factors; he is ISOLATING one part of contention to determine the truth or relative validity of the claim.

      Realist used clearly defined terms and detailed exactly when, where and against whom the events occurred.

      This is called objective methodology and it is employed here to eliminate bias, not to support an already existing one.

      Had NBA Realist actually had a bias, he likely would not have used actual evidence, rather he would have used conjecture and third or fourth hand anecdotal evidence as opposed to data that can be independently checked and confirmed or refuted.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | January 23, 2012, 3:59 pm
  95. The best players want to take the final shot … and don’t disappear in the 4th quarter like lebron

    Posted by Steven | January 26, 2012, 4:40 pm
  96. For the people getting on Lakers fans for the ring argument. This is my perspective at least. LeBron is the best basketball player in the world. Kobe is the most complete basketball player in the world. The ring thing at least when I bring it up I’m saying Kobe has had a better career than LeBron because the number one goal is championships. His stats arent as good as LeBrons but their still legen wait for it dary. While also winning the five championships maybe not as the alpha dog but an essential part of a team. He also has just as many losses in the finals as LeBron while winning five of them. Pretty much when I say it, I can’t speak for all Lakers fans and theyre are some dumb ones out there just like there are dumb heat, celtics, bulls, etc. fans, I’m saying Kobe has had the more successful career and more amazing career, because he has done what takes to give him and his teamates the ultimate satisfaction in NBA and has done it well. Wile Lebron who had a horrible team the first time still counts as a loss like a desperation 3 pointer counts as game winning shot attempt. Then LeBron got his super team and dissapeared during his best chance against a team he probably couldve beat. Which is funny because its almost the exact same situation as 2004 where a more talented team lost to a more cohesive team. Getting off subject in my opinion Kobes had a better carrer, but just because he has doesn’t mean much in present time. But Imma still rub it you clown ass LeBron fans who hype up a player who with all these physical gift just joined forces with the best trio I’ve seen in my lifetime I’m only twenty choked sorry he did. Just cause I’m young doesn’t mean I don’t know my ball so stop yourselves now. The thing thats funny to me is Kobe is 33 and on his 16th season with more injuries than anyone has probably played with is still in the conversation with a 26 year old that is probably the most athetic basketball player ever seen. He has a torn ligament in his shooting and went for four straight 40 point games amazing. Appreciate while hes here cuz just like there will never be another Jordan there will never another player that can score 81 (oh wait it was the raptors makes it not impressive). There will never be another player that can score 63 points through three quarters and outscore the opposing team (Amazing enough for you). So hate because he isn’t a nice guy (see Jordans retirement speech) or cheated on his wife (see every superstar athlete or A-list movie star). So while you guys hate ill appreciate what i see. Btw i hate LeBron hated him when he was with Cleveland back then it was because he was cocky bastard but it seemed i was the only one that saw it, but i’ve never not apprecited his amazing athleticism that has caught me stand up after his dunks/passes/alleyoops even tho i really don’t like the cat. Oh and Realist great article would love to argue but cant say much, you got stats and what not and kinda always knew in the back of my mind because while ive seen kobe hit some amazing buzzer beaters. I was pretty sure ive seen him miss a lot more.

    Posted by J | January 30, 2012, 7:27 pm
    • Ah yes, the straw man argument. No one who says rings shouldn’t be a criteria for ranking players are implying that the goal isn’t to win a championship. They’re just simply saying that that goal itself is never the result of a strictly individual effort (or even the majority of individual effort). Thus the flaw in ranking players by using rings, which – surprise! – is a team accomplishment.

      Even Lakers fans are crying right now about players stepping up around Kobe so the Lakers can win games. Yet they still want to give all the credit to Kobe by they tell us how many rings *he* has? That dog won’t hunt.

      Posted by The Realist #2 | January 31, 2012, 10:42 am
  97. i just dont get it, his has 5 rings which is more than lebron can say, you say lebrons has a higher percentage, ummm maybe because he’s taken less shots of course, and lets be honest, horry had a good shot, fisher had good ones but if your a coach are you really gonna choose them to shoot before kobe???? i love lebron as a player he’s good but incomparable to jordan, and this is why these discussions come to play because in the past decades in the NBA, not one player besides kobe have ever played on the caliber to BE compared to jordan, as far as lebron, lets wait til he gets old enough to start throwing stats, or let him get a ring first lol, but to finish kobe is a great player by percentage of game winners maybe a little slack but in a league of soft sub par talent lol who the hell cares its all we got

    Posted by vonny | January 31, 2012, 7:56 pm
  98. Honestly, you don’t know anything about REAL “Basketball” and with your article it seems you’ve never played a crucial game. Your basically relying on numbers. Point is – Together with LeBron both of you are chokers! Common let’s play, surely I’ll toy you alive. Sucker.

    Posted by Paul "The Truth" | February 1, 2012, 1:35 am
  99. THATS COMPLETELY INNACURATE!!!! they didnt count A WHOLE LOT of GWS\GTS kobe had. what about his GWS against memphis? against raptors? heat? bucks? HELLO??? theres like a dozen more GWS\GTS he had they didnt count in the table up there. JUST KOBE HATERS.

    Posted by YOURE SUCH LIARS | February 2, 2012, 5:55 am
    • i love reading comments with CAPS…its almost like watching the veins on your forehead explode.
      did you notice how all the tables had “game 1″ or “game 4″…its cause this is measuring clutchness in the PLAYOFFS…when more is on the line and true clutchness is measured.

      Posted by Anti Bill Simmons | February 2, 2012, 6:33 am
  100. How am I just seeing this website? Objective, accurate, and doesn’t have a hidden agenda? I’m IN. LOVE this post.

    Posted by Ansjan Turner | February 22, 2012, 6:41 pm
  101. i think its weird Kobe hasnt made a GT/GW shot in the playoffs since 2008 but they have won championships. Haha

    Posted by ec | February 25, 2012, 4:53 pm
  102. I love this article. It’s all about facts and not educated biased opinions. Kobe fans hate facts cause they are not in his favor. Lebron has takes a higher % of game winning/tying shots in playoff games in his career than Kobe. He has also hit a higher %. He hit 2 less than Kobe in 116 less games. Take only 13 less in 116 less games. THESE ARE FACT PEOPLE. LBJ being scared to shoot is an ESPN/Skip Bayless myth. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Posted by Garnett | February 27, 2012, 1:31 pm
  103. Agree that Kobe’s actual FG% for the GW shots is dismal, but that has to put in context, same with Lebron’s relatively good FG%. There are major loopholes that need to be addressed before anyone could crown Lebron over Kobe when it comes to the last shot of the game.

    1. What’s the ratio of last shot attempts to the OPPORTUNITIES to take them for Kobe? Lebron?

    If the game comes down to the last shot, who between the 2 had taken it? You see ‘clutch’ is not just abt the stats for the shots taken, but also should cover shots that weren’t. If a guy has a higher GW FG% simply bec he takes only what he thinks he could make, then the stat becomes a little bit watered down. And pls, the rates at which a player takes GW shots depend largely on opportunities, which then depends on the strength of the team. For all I care, the Lakers might be so dominant early on with Shaq that the GW shots hardly came by, or needed. Conversely, LBJ’s Cavs were not as good, thus the greater number of GW shots needed. I am not saying this is the case, but I am very interested to know the context before making any comparison. You see, you have to normalise stats with some reasonableness…they way I see it, shots not taken should count as a negative to the player.

    And ok, assists since people would defend Lebron by way of the Donyell Marshall pass. Well, you could adjust the numbers then to include assists. Instead of GW shots, let’s broaden that to GW shots + GW assists, such that the whole data range would now include shots made+missed+not taken+opportunity w/o attempt+assisted shots made+assisted shots missed. The opportunity without attempt refers to instances where the team has a chance to win it given they could take a shot but for whatever reason couldn’t. Now that’s a better picture of clutch performance.

    Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 2:39 pm
    • The point that I was making above is also to be fair to Skip Bayless for zeroing on Lebron and questioning his drive to win. I get him when he bases LBJ for not showing up or shrinking under pressure…and if stat-gurus want to refute him, then you have to squarely address his position – the LBJ no-show. The article here concludes that the
      writer would pick Lebron to take the GW shot. Well, the bigger question is ‘how confident are you that he’s gonna take it?’ because anecdotal evidence, as late as the last All-Star game shows that he would hesitate at it, and then eventually would choose to pass despite a spectacular performance up to that point. Clutch is as abt efficiency as the player’s willingness to take what is his to take. You don’t win games on FG% alone. You have to try to win the game by attempting a shot. And there’s no question when it comes to Kobe – he’ll take it and live and die with it. With Lebron, you can’t be sure. And that uncertainty doesn’t inspire confidence at all. I couldn’t care less whether he makes half of the GW shots that he take IF I can’t count on him taking them in the first place.

      People often offer Jordan’s pass to Paxson and Kerr as evidences that great players do make the pass. Well, people forget the context of those 2 passes. Both occasions came from time-outs, where Jordan specifically outlined his plans – he would create a shot for Paxson by drawing Magic, and a shot for Kerr by drawing Stockton. Both were deliberate actions by the man who’s in-charged of winning the games for the Bulls. He didn’t just pass bec he couldn’t take a shot, or that, on-the-fly, there was a more ‘open’ teammate. He was in-chargr from the get-go. With Jordan, you know what you’re gonna get BEFORE events unfold. There’s a level of certainty in him, an air of confidence. Could you say the same of Lebron? I can’t.

      Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 3:25 pm
      • I’m sorry but your points are just long-winded blather that does nothing to refute the author’s pretty iron-clad post.

        Now, we’re supposed to look at “how confident we (an outside party) would feel about Lebron taking the last shot” or penalize a player for good shot selection and not playing hero ball, give others credit for mere attempts regardless of the result and even try and divine the inane ramblings of Skip Bayless? C’mon now….

        The facts are what they are. I know that it’s jarring for some that they don’t fit the “ESPN” narrative but all the spin in the world won’t change them.

        Speaking of narrative, if Kobe had successfully goaded Lebron into chucking a 35ft contested 3 yesterday and he missed it, we’d be hearing “Lebrick” but since he passed it and it went bad, we’re hearing “LeChoke”. Despite the after the fact bs being spun by the usual suspects like A. Wojo at Yahoo and Skip Bayless et al. nobody would’ve given him credit for just the attempt.

        Posted by ks | February 27, 2012, 4:24 pm
        • I don’t refute nos. Like I said, Kobe’s FG% at GW shots is worse than Lebron. That’s the fact. But the argument made out of the fact by most people – that Lebron is more’clutch’ than Kobe – is a fallacy.

          The ‘simple’ stat – GW FG% – used does not take into account ALL relevant factors that happen during the last shot.

          1. It does not take into account the number of instances when their team is down 1 or 2 points with either Lebron or Kobe on-court, which should have been used to adjust/normalise the numbers

          2. It does not take into account the shots that were not taken in those GW instances:

          - botched plays leading to no attempts made
          - passes made by Kobe or Lebron that led to made shots, or missed shots

          To me, if you don’t want ‘excuses’, then include the flip side of the coin, the stats relevant to ‘shots not taken’. Bec frankly, it’s a fallacy to call one clutch when all you have presented was one ‘simple’ stat that over-simplify the reality behind the dying seconds in a game. This is called the fallacy of single cause.

          The proper way to is to devise a composite index to measure the total impact of a player in that game-winning situation. Pluses for made shots (by the player himself or assisted), minuses for missed opportunities (by himself AND the whole team).

          Now why the whole team when talking abt missed opportunities? Well, it’s pretty simple – we want to crown someone clutch. If someone claims to be clutch, then the team has to win when it can whenever he’s on the court in those dying seconds, regardless of whether he makes the GW shot himself or assisted it. On the flip side, if he couldn’t will his team to win, be it via a botched play, a pass that led to a miss, a turnover, etc., then he’s not clutch…simply bec he FAILED to lead his team to victory when he had the chance, i.e., he was on-court, in those dying seconds.

          That’s not wishy-washy analysis. That’s just looking at that game-winning situation with a fuller perspective than just FG%.

          3. It does not take ino consideration

          Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 5:37 pm
        • And on the anecdote, was it from 35ft? Was it gonna be contested? Also, if he took the shot and missed, that’s a miss that would lead to a loss…similar to what happened with the intercepted pass. Same result – a loss decided in the dying seconds of the game with Lebron on the court. That should count as a minus, regardless since he didn’t get the job done. But will it ever appear on your ‘factual’ GW FG% ‘simple’ stat? No. A loss due to his inability to finish the game that’s coldly, completely, and utterly comparable to a loss that Kobe has when he miss a GW shot. So why ignore the former than the latter? That’s the test of reasonableness when you’re constructing arguments. Numbers don’t lie but people do. And the worse liars are the ones who hide behind the numbers. If you’re a Christian, this sounds all-too familiar: devils using the scripture itself to lie. This is no different from what Lebron fanatics do. You deride the Kobe Nation for their irrational devotion to Kobe. Well, at least theirs is irrational. Yours? Misusing stats and bending reality to disguise your same irrational devotion to Lebron.

          Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 7:22 pm
          • What are you talking about? You are off on an odd religious tangent and not making much sense. Your arguments are, at best, contradictory but that’s not surprising since you don’t have the facts on your side.

            Posted by ks | February 27, 2012, 8:42 pm
          • @ KS: what facts are you talking abt? The religious quip was intentional. How? Because you are as ‘religiously blind’ on Lebron as a religious fanatic.

            Where’s the contradiction? I always find people ramble generalities when they ran out of specifics.

            Fact: Kobe’s GW FG% is worse than Lebron’s
            Fiction: Kobe’s more clutch than Lebron bec. of the fact above.

            It’s fiction because the argument is fallacious.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 8:53 pm
        • KS, for sanity’s sake, don’t waste your time with him.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | February 27, 2012, 9:03 pm
          • Indeed though it’s amusing that he thinks the original post is a “fallacious argument” when it really is a simple listing of the facts which destroys a narrative he is obviously comfortable with and has a hard time reconciling with reality.

            Posted by ks | February 27, 2012, 9:15 pm
          • Jourdan will make “claims” to reason often, all while contradicting himself and/or creating double-standards at the same time. Better to simply avoid taking the bait.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 27, 2012, 9:42 pm
          • Hey Realist! I try to keep off you because you’ve been weighed and found wanting. You seem too scarred from the way I kicked your sorry ass that you have to chase me everywhere.

            But please, I would have assumed that KS doesn’t have a limp dick. He could jack himself off so you don’t need to stroke his dick at all.

            But then, I maybe wrong. He might enjoy the way you lick his balls.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 11:23 pm
          • @ KS:

            It’s amazing when people would start qualifying their claims when challenged…listen to yourself!

            Let’s dissect what you had said:

            1. “…it (original post) really is a simple listing of the facts…”

            really? that’s it? it “just” listed the facts? hmm…let me re-post telling excerpts from the original post:

            ————

            “Who would I rather have taking the last shot in a playoff game instead of Kobe Bryant”?…I want a guy who has a strong ability to create their own shot, and most importantly, has demonstrated prior success in making the playoff game winning/game tying shot when called upon…Lebron James.”

            “…For the record, Lebron James did not pass up that shot (Donyell Marshall shot) because he was afraid or unwilling…”

            “Instead of forcing low percentage shots that have little opportunity to go in, Lebron has historically done what every coach, GM, fan, and talking head has always preached to their superstars – take the highest percentage shot and trust your teammates…”

            ——–

            The narrative about contains MORE than just a list of cold facts. There were subjective elements in them. Is rationalising Lebron’s pass to Donyell Marshall (which led to a loss) not an example of subjective judgment on the part of the writer? Based on what? “trusting” your teammates, making the “right” play? Heck, what’s the exact, objective definitions of “trust” and “right play”? Those are subjective calls.

            Oh, I get it, we should accept apologies for losses caused by missed shots that came from Lebron passes. They shouldn’t factor in the “who should take the GW shot?” debate. After all, it wasn’t Lebron who missed.

            Well, that’s just an apologist talking. Lebron MADE the play. He DECIDED to pass. So why absolve him of the culpability for team loss due to a lesser player’s miss?

            What excuses aside from “doing the right play” should we add to that list for Lebron?

            And the biggest puzzle for me has always been the obvious flip-flopping of the writer-cum-Lebron lover…

            ————-

            “….And no wing player in the NBA can get themselves a higher percentage shot while driving to the basket than Lebron James can, as evidenced by his high FG%…”

            ————-

            IF Lebron’s the BEST at getting to the basket, as evidenced by his high FG%, should it not follow that he should be creating his own shot than pass it to a lesser teammate, who’d take a lower percentage jump shot?

            The very FACT (pun intended) to you fail to see the internal inconsistencies of the original post only highlights your obvious bias…a judgment before you even see the facts.

            And let’s go back to the second part of your accusation…

            2. “…which destroys a narrative he is obviously comfortable with”

            What narrative are you talking abt? I don’t have a “narrative”. I am not selling any story. All I did is challenge the narrative implied in the original post, that “Lebron’s the best guy to entrust the GW shot because of his GW FG%.” All I did is to call it a fallacy.

            Finally, the last bit:

            3. “…and has a hard time reconciling with reality.”

            What reality? Which bit of it? I am at peace with the reality that Lebron has better GW FG%. I definitely do not agree with the conclusion made out of that. Lebron is NOT the clear-cut player to take the GW shot simply because he has the highest GW FG%. There are many other variables that complicate the GW situation. The objective in a GW situation is to WIN. And wins don’t come by simply bec a player has a better GW FG%.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 1:35 am
  104. “Speaking of narrative, if Kobe had successfully goaded Lebron into chucking a 35ft contested 3 yesterday and he missed it, we’d be hearing “Lebrick” but since he passed it and it went bad, we’re hearing “LeChoke”. Despite the after the fact bs being spun by the usual suspects like A. Wojo at Yahoo and Skip Bayless et al. nobody would’ve given him credit for just the attempt.”

    Absolutely, positively 100% true.

    I’ll go even further: even if he shot the three and he DOES make it, people would probably write it off because it was “lucky shot” or a “meaningless exhibition game”. Another way the LBJ detractors continue to contradict themselves on a daily basis.

    By the way, credit LBJ (along with Wade and Deron Williams) for actually trying to win the game. Dwight Howard: four three-point attempts. Its an all-star game, but really?

    Posted by The Realist #2 | February 27, 2012, 7:59 pm
    • Well, I guess it’s a step in the right direction then. Maybe he’ll try to ‘win the game’ in the playoffs now.

      You can’t really ride off the game if he makes a 3, because then he wins his 3rd AS game MVP, though it would’ve only been his first with Kobe actually playing more than 3 minutes.

      Posted by boyer | February 27, 2012, 8:33 pm
      • Try to win the game in the playoffs? Ah yes, I see the ignoring the majority of the data and redefining “clutch” to mean “performance in the 4th Qt of Finals games” ONLY is alive and well. Too funny…

        Posted by ks | February 27, 2012, 8:47 pm
        • Redefining clutch? You gus were the ones who redefined clutch to make Lebron looked good!

          Being clutch is just as abt shots not attempted, turnovers, botched plays as it is abt FG%. By ignoring stats other than FG%, you have crowned Lebron your king. Yeah, that’s being factual.

          And please, why whine abt the ‘what ifs’? That if Lebron made the shot detractors would just as dismiss it as inconsequential. Why? Just to water down the fact that he DECIDED NOT to take the shot and had committed a TURNOVER? Passing the chance to win the game after making 6 treys? So please tell me why should I not see that as a negative on his ‘clutch-ness’?

          Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 9:14 pm
          • Nonsense. Shots not attempted? WTF? Talk about subjective silliness. It’s not a question of redefining clutch on my end. It’s a question of looking at the actual data. You’re just butthurt because the data doesn’t fit with your preconceived notion so you’re scrambling to “contextualize” it in a way that makes you feel better.

            The funny thing is that if you added a metric like game winning assist instead of bs like shots not attempted, since Lebron is a much better passer than Kobe the data would probably skew more in his favor so you should probably just stop while you are behind.

            Posted by ks | February 27, 2012, 9:25 pm
          • @ KS:

            Nonsense? Let’s have a thought experiment:

            1.Imagine a player A turning the ball over in GW situations 10 out of 20 times but then makes 7 of the 10 shots that he managed to take.
            2. Imagine player B who was able to take all 20 GW shots making 8 of them

            Who’s more clutch? In your analysis, player A FG% is at amazing .7 while player B is just 0.4 so you’d likely crown player A as the king of clutch…but in reality, player A effectiveness in those situations is just 7 shots over 20 chances (0.35), which is even slightly lower than player B. Supposing they’re all 2-pt shots, player A produced 2 pts less than B for the same number of GW opportunities.

            That’s how you broadly analyse how faulty your metric is for removing other factors that invariably result to a loss…the same loss that one could have by missing the GW shot. So why the hell would you exclude them from the analysis?

            And no, I want to include assists/passes that led to misses since they also invariably influence the outcome of the game. Whether or not Lebron comes out even stronger as a ‘clutch’ performer after their inclusions is irrelevant to my argument. I could care less. The point is that excluding them is am oversimplification of th GW stiuation that any conclusions derived from stats that don’t include them are bogus.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 27, 2012, 10:18 pm
      • HE’S won as many games in the playoffs as the rest of the stars in NBA history have won: zero. And that will stay the same whether the Heat win zero or 11 titles with him on the team.

        And no, even a spinning-turnaround made three-pointer with his eyes closed and Kobe in his face would matter to the detractors. It’s just an “All-Star” game right?

        Except when he misses or turns it over.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | February 27, 2012, 8:47 pm
        • Quit whining about lebron bashers. He has more supporters than anyone playing in the nba today.

          I just read something and makes it perfect sense. Lebron has no problem or no pressure to take the shots when the game isn’t that close, but then when the game is on the line, he won’t shoot, or seize the moment, exactly what happened in the AS game. He’s afraid of failure, and that can only take you so far. Eventually, you have to a ‘will to win’ to take you the rest of the way. Just how badly does he want to win? He better hope his teammates can bail him out, because his drive to win has mightily regressed in each of the past 2 playoffs.

          Make or miss that shot in the AS game, if he shot it, that play would be remembered by everyone forever. Except, he was too scared to take it, too scared of failure, similar to be dunked on by jordan crawford, and he tried to destroy all video of that. His image seems to be his #1 priority, and frankly it’s not very good.

          Posted by boyer | February 28, 2012, 6:59 am
          • Ask Chicago or Boston if hes afraid to take shots in the clutch. They will tell you that he is not. In fact Lebron could have done what some of the east players did(like D-Rose) and sit on the bench, instead he came back in and almost pulled the game out. If it weren’t for his shooting and defense in the second half, the east wouldn’t have gotten that close. If a couple of people had hit open shots we wouldn’t be having this chat. Plus if you watched the game you would have noticed the play was drawn up for him to pass, which is why he was looking for someone else in the corner.

            Why on a team of “allstars” does Lebron have to take the last shot? And why does it only matter when Lebron does it?
            No one mentions that Kobe choked on the FT line with a chance to put the game away.

            Only Lebron is held to unrealistic standards.

            Posted by nightbladehunter | February 28, 2012, 7:41 am
          • “Just how badly does he want to win?”

            So bad that he left a mediocre playoff supporting cast in a city that always held him at demigod status, took a paycut, and left his “nice guy” rep in tatters in order to win with a better team in Miami. In addition to sacrificing his role as as being the lone high-usage guy on his team and having to actually share the ball with other stars, I’d say that he kinda cares about this winning thing.

            Boyer, this has nothing to do with a “fear of failure”; it has EVERYTHING to do with holding someone to an impossible standard so he can fulfill a delusional and irrational status of basketball “greatness”. And you’re simply buying into it.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 8:27 am
          • By the way, some people here can be dishonest all they want, but this bears repeating: if he took that shot and missed, this thread is about how “unclutch” he is instead, and how other players like the “clutch” Wade should’ve taken the last shot (and, in an amazing display if irony, LBJ simply followed this “advice” and gave the ball to Wade, who missed miserably). Let’s not act like it’s enough for detratctors that LBJ should merely attempt the shot in question.

            Or even take AND make the shot in a “meaningless exhibition game”.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 8:55 am
          • “Ask Chicago or Boston if hes afraid to take shots in the clutch. They will tell you that he is not.”

            I wonder nightbladerunner – according to the detractors, if LBJ was the one who took the clutch shots in those series, does that mean Wade “shrunk in the moment” and “didn’t want to win”? Did he “defer” to LeBron?

            It’s okay for Wade to take a backseat to someone else? And for no one to say a word about it?

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 10:41 am
          • The knack on Lebron is the LBJ no-show, which the GW FG% conveniently ignores since it only counts the times that Lebron showed up to shoot the GW shot. It will not include games where his TOs in a GW situation led to a loss, like what happened in the AS.

            I find it really funny that Lebron ass-wipes would offer thw ‘what if’ card to again excuse Lebron, or that appeal to pity Only Lebron is held to the highest standards. The fact that he turned the ball over that led to a loss has nothing to do with ‘what ifs’ and standards BS. It is a cold fact. Game on the line. The basketball in Lebron’s hands with enough time to get a shot. 6 treys before that (an AS record). Turnover. Loss. Those are facts. No excuses. I don’t have to care abt ‘calling him Lebrick if he miss’ or ‘dismissing it bec it was just an AS game’….those are IRRELEVANT…won’t change the fact. It’s just stupid to hear quant-wannabes argue by way of offering irrelevant suppositions to deny the pattern that Lebron disappears when he needs to shine the most.

            Offering Chicago series is stupid since from narrowing the clutch definition to GW FG%, they’d then broaden the argument to a series, just to ‘prove’ that Lebron’s not afraid to take the shot. Such inconsistency is appalling.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 1:08 pm
          • Lebron doesn’t have to take the shot, but he was the one who had the ball against kobe, nobody else did, that’s why he should take the shot, instead of passing it to griffin. Just as a basketball fan in general, it’s very disappointing that he passed up this chance to win the AS game, which is what kobe seemed to be saying to him after it.

            Since when does a mediocre supporting cast get you 66 and 61 wins in consecutive seasons with the best record in the nba each season? I’ve never seen this happen before. And clev. was favorites to win each season, unfortunately for lebron the pressure does get to him, which is weird, because that didn’t seem to be the case before 09. It’s quite puzzling. His miami team won 58 in 11 compared with 61 in 10 and 66 in 09. A valid question is that did his team actually get better in miami?

            I’m not holding lebron to any standard. He’s the one who brought this onto himself. And he and his fans want to proclaim himself as the best player in the league and the best talent the league has ever seen. I don’t hold him to that standard because I disagree with that. I’m just calling out the nonsense and blind following of lebron despite his recent failures. He’s had great teams 3 years, and his quit in at least 2 of those years. You have to at least give full effort, if not, there’s no reason why anyone should declare he is the best.

            Posted by boyer | February 28, 2012, 1:12 pm
          • “I’m not holding lebron to any standard. He’s the one who brought this onto himself.”

            Of course you are. You’re here posting your grievances with LBJ because he falls short of your own personal (and irrational) expectations. That shouldn’t be something that you dispute.

            “Since when does a mediocre supporting cast get you 66 and 61 wins in consecutive seasons with the best record in the nba each season?”

            Since they didn’t do their jobs in the playoffs. I thought the regular season didn’t matter to LBJ detractors. Why are you talking about the regular season then?

            “He’s had great teams 3 years, and his quit in at least 2 of those years.”

            He didn’t play well. Difference between that and “quitting”, and good luck trying to prove that. Unless you automatically associate “quitting” with poor performances and team losses, which means Kobe definitely “quit” last year, ’08, ’07, ’06, ’05, ’04, ’03, and before the Lakers threepeat.

            Never mind though, because whenever Kobe is accused of “quitting” (and that’s happened multiple times during his career), you got a story for it. Guess we’re all “biased” after all, aren’t we Boyer?

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 2:08 pm
          • Once again you’re saying that I said stuff that I never did.

            If I held lebron to a different standard than everyone else, then I would expect him to have won at least 1-2 titles. However, I have yet to expect lebron to win any, which is exactly what has happened. The only thing I expect out of lebron is to play awesome overall during the reg. season and maybe for a round or 2, but then eventually melt away from the spotlight and fade away. I, however, do think he will win at least 1 title during his career. But, his teams have been the favorites for 3 years and we all know how that’s turned out, so maybe not.

            Whoever said the reg. season didn’t count. I mention it because it’s foolish for anyone to think he played on bad teams those years. And when you say ‘they,’ lebron is included in that. And you can’t expect your teammates to play hard when the supposed leader of your team doesn’t, now can you? This is a huge difference between kobe and lebron. Kobe sets the tone in practice and games. Listen to anyone talk about team usa in 2008 and how fanatical kobe was about practice and working hard, and then you’ll maybe get the picture eventually.

            You’re seeing what you want to see. The only times I ever said lebron quit was the 10 series against the c’s and the 11 finals. I again challenge you to rewatch certain games in those series. If you can’t see a difference in his effort level, then you know nothing about basketball. You and others want to believe Kobe quit in the 06 playoffs. Believe what you want, I could care less. He stayed aggressive and get his teammates easy looks instead of moping around in the corner doing nothing.

            Posted by boyer | February 28, 2012, 6:15 pm
          • Yes Boyer, you have no standards. You’re just here expressing your disdain for people who believe LBJ is a great player because he doesn’t satisfy your own (irrational) criteria for basketball “greatness”. Don’t be dishonest.

            “Whoever said the reg. season didn’t count.”

            The same people who only care about what LBJ does in the playoffs.

            “And you can’t expect your teammates to play hard when the supposed leader of your team doesn’t, now can you?”

            Yes I can; I fully expect grown men with minds of their own and who play basketball for a living to play hard. Leadership is important; it’s not mind-control. And it’s also not an excuse for avoiding self-acconutiblity. 

            Of course, some Kobe fans have no problem saying this whenever the Lakers don’t win a title. Then the same Kobe Bryant who “wills” his teammates to rings avoids any blame, and the focus is shifted to what his teammates *willfully* didn’t do instead.

            “You and others want to believe Kobe quit in the 06 playoffs. Believe what you want, I could care less.”

            I don’t. What I do believe however, is that if LBJ was the one who didn’t shoot the ball in the 2nd half of an elimination game and got “his teammates involved” instead, you’d be the first one to accuse him of not wanting to win and “shrinking from the moment”. As a matter of fact, you’re already doing it.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 7:47 pm
          • @ Jourdan

            Its not stupid to offer up the Boston and Bulls series because Lebron took and hit big shots in the 4th Q. Which you would know if you watched those games. Or could remember anything good Lebron did. Not sure which it is for you and people like you. I can’t figure out if you don’t watch basketball and just assume that the “experts” are right or if you just can’t remember when Lebron does hit shots(sort of like how you can’t remember all the series that Kobe didn’t hit shots). But he made huge shots in both of those series. Miami would not have won game 5 of either series without the shots that Lebron hit. In fact Miami trailed in the 4th Q of both of those games until Lebron stepped up and started making big plays. I offer them to say that he has shown up in the 4th Q of big games before, which people claim that he has not.

            And btw about the quiting, like others said if you look at stats and say “oh he quit” then you HAVE TO HOLD KOBE TO THE SAME STANDARD, because based on his stats and outcomes Kobe quit in a number of series, including last year when they got beat by 30+ in the final game of getting swept. If that is not quiting….well then you might as well own up to the fact that you have a double standard when it comes to Lebron.

            Posted by nightbladehunter | February 29, 2012, 7:06 am
          • I’m not expressing my disdain for people who think lebron is a great player. It might surprise you, but I think he’s a great player. However, I’m not blinded by his stat stuffing and all of his hype. I see a big difference between him and the truly elite players in nba history. He might have been given the most God-given talent of all time, but all that talent has not fully materialized on the court.

            Lebron said that he’d win a title in clev., which he didn’t. He said he’d win not one, not two,… up to 7, or whatever that stuff he said was. So far, he has 0. Maybe he’ll work his way up that list, time will tell. He has a sense of entitlement that he carried with himself once he entered the league. This type of stuff and how he celebrates himself, despite not winning any rings yet, is what is so off-putting for me. I recognzie how great he is for what he has done, but I don’t give him credit for what he hasn’t done nor do I crown him a ‘king’, and try to rationalize each of his failures like lebron fanboys do.

            Well, when you talk up lebron like he’s the best player ever, and then he quits on his team, then don’t act like his teammates weren’t good enough. In 07 and 08, yea, his teammates weren’t good enough. But, in 09 and 10, that’s not true. If you don’t agree with that, find me another a superstar in history that won 127 games over 2 seasons with crappy teammates.

            And I didn’t notice his teammates not playing hard. They were playing hard, except when your star player doesn’t play hard, then they won’t get as good of looks, right? Which when people say Kobe didn’t play hard against the suns, then why did his teammates consistently get great looks during that game? It makes no sense that they would if he was he resorted to moping around in the corner doing nothing.

            I’ve never said kobe’s teammates quit and I’ve never heard anyone say that. But, I would say that someone could make a case for Pau quitting in last year’s playoffs. If you watched him play, then you’d know what I’m talking about. You seem to imply that I think any time someone plays bad that that means they quit, and once again, I don’t think that nor have I ever said that.

            I have yet to say lebron quit for not shooting the ball. Your arguments are funny, they’re almost all based on speculation of what you think I think. I don’t lebron quit in the AS game, but I think that he had a potential big moment for himself at the end, and he shrinked from the moment. That much should be obvious. Whether you like or dislike him, I could care less, but him not shooting in that type of situation as a basketball fan was very disappointing. I have never seen Kobe not want to shoot the GW shot in a game. Often when he doesn’t shoot it, the play is run and they can’t get him the ball, and then fisher has to get it and shoot it, and kobe usually looks pissed that he didn’t get the ball. Being fearless is important, and lebron certainly seems to fear failure, which seems to explain his lackluster play often late in games and in the playoffs.

            Posted by boyer | February 29, 2012, 8:57 am
          • What are you even talking about Boyer? You’re all over the place with your post.

            All I’m simply pointing out is your double-standard when it comes to LeBron James. Kobe not shooting the ball in Game 6 vs. Phoenix is “getting his teammates involved”; LBJ doing the same is “shrinking from the moment”. The regular season when it comes to LBJ “doesn’t matter”, yet you’re telling me about the Cavs wins during the same regular season to tell me how “good” his team was. And don’t even talk about how no one blames Kobe’s teammates for Lakers losses; some Kobe fans were doing just that to explain the Mavs SWEEP of the heavily-favored Lakers in the playoffs and while giving none of the blame to the man who “wills his teammates to win”, Kobe Bryant. Could you imagine if the Mavs swept the Heat in the Finals? And blew them out by 10+ points and nearly 40 POINTS in two different games? Do I even have to tell you about the LBJ backlash (especially from you) that would take place if that happened?

            But no, let’s keep acting as if you’re being completely unbiased and impartial with your posts.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 29, 2012, 10:02 am
          • I’m not making a double standard. Kobe shot 16x in that game. Not shooting much doesn’t correlate with not trying hard. Kobe shot 3x in the 2nd half, but he didn’t quit on his team. He played hard, and his team had great offensive possessions. Watch the game for yourself instead of making up stuff.

            For the billionth time, I never said the reg. season doesn’t matter. You either read that somewhere else or you’re making it up.

            Where have you been? All I heard were people bashing Kobe for the dallas series. Kobe’s teammates did play poorly, that is true, but dallas was the better team. If kobe wasn’t injured and playing on a bad ankle, and was at full strength, he would’ve been potentially able to carry the lakers into the next round, but he wasn’t completely healthy. You seem to think I’m making excuses for Kobe, but I’m not. He played at an AS level, but not at all-world level in that series, and that was the difference. He was seriously injured, too, not like some phantom elbow injury Lebron tried to milk. That’s the way it goes sometimes.

            Lebron consistently shrinks from the big moment, that is a fact. As a lebron fanboy, I’m surprised you think him doing this is ok. There’s never a time that Kobe doesn’t want to shoot that last shot. I’ve never said that any player should always shoot it. Sometimes, you can’t shoot it and should pass, but normally the opportunity to shoot it is there. But, Kobe wants to shoot, while lebron doesn’t want to shoot. This has been evident throughout each player’s careers.

            When the game’s on the line, it becomes evident who the top players are who want the ball. Lebron had no problems shooting some shots when down 10-15 in the 4th, which is fine, these weren’t as high pressure shots as the last shot opportunity was, though. When the game actually got close, that’s when lebron froze up. Very similar to the 06 fiba game against greece, that when greece went ahead late in game, lebron had no answer, and in the 08 olympics – gold medal game. Lebron did nothing late in game, but Kobe took over. Make or miss, Kobe was going to put his butt on the line. He doesn’t failure. He hates failure, but he doesn’t fear it. Maybe someday you’ll get it, but I doubt it.

            Posted by boyer | February 29, 2012, 10:57 am
          • Back to the 06 suns series. Kobe only shot 14x in an OT game 4 win that series. Does anyone say he quit in that game? I don’t think so. The game plan the entire series for the lakers was to get everyone involved, which is what Kobe tried to do, other than in game 6, which he went off for 50, and they lost, so that didn’t work. But, in game 4, Kobe had 2 buzzer beater opportunities, and he didn’t shy away from either. When we talk about the entire game as a whole vs. late-game situations, there’s a huge difference. The big-time players don’t shy away from these big moments. They might fail, but they don’t shy away.

            Lebron shies away from these big moments more than any other supposedly elite player that I’ve ever seen. That’s why I say he fears failure, as that’s what it looks like. Regardless of what he’s thinking, the fact is that he does shy away from the big moments all too often. That game 7 of the suns series was a blowout, kobe had no chance to rescue his team. The disparity of talent levels between the 2 teams was huge. Kobe gets huge props for getting his team that far, just as lebron gets his huge props for getting the cavs to the 07 finals, even in a weak conf. However, lebron’s weaknesses as a shooter that series greatly limited his abilities against the great defensiv-minded spurs.

            Kobe played hard in the dallas series last year, and even if he was full strength, the lakers still probably lose.

            I’m on lebron because of all the things you could do to improve his game, the only thing he has had to do to win 1 ring minimum at this pt. is to play hard. That’s the simplest thing to do – give full effort. Is that really too much to ask. You don’t want to hear it because you love lebron, but that’s the simple truth. He’d probably have at least 2 rings, too, if he played hard the whole time. Even if he plays below average, his cavs team was in control of the boston series in 10, and they were in control the finals last year. They’ve been favorites 3 years in a row. Cannot remember any one player that has had that great of teams to continually fall short. I’m not blinded by the media’s and fan’s obsession of lebron. His 4th qtr. play in last year’s finals was atrocious.

            Can you really not notice a difference in his effort level between the last few games of the series compared to the rest of his playoffs? It’s great if you can do great through 3 qtrs., but where you at when your team needs you the most? You might not bring anything to the party, happens to everyone, but at least show up.

            Posted by boyer | February 29, 2012, 11:25 am
          • “I’m not making a double standard. Kobe shot 16x in that game. Not shooting much doesn’t correlate with not trying hard. Kobe shot 3x in the 2nd half, but he didn’t quit on his team.”

            Boyer, if LBJ shot only three times in the 2nd half of a playoff elimination game and his team lost, what would you call it? “Getting his teammates involved”? You sure about that? Given your responses about LBJ so far, pardon me if I think that you’d be completly dishonest if you extended that same excuse to LBJ. Especially when he didn’t have like a game that in the Finals, regardless of how he played – and yet in your eyes, he “quit”.

            “When the game’s on the line, it becomes evident who the top players are who want the ball.”

            But when a SERIES in on the line (Kobe’s Game 7), it’s perfectly okay for Kobe to take three shots in the 2nd half and “get his teammates involved”. And it’s also wrong for him to receive any backlash for it.

            Got it.

            “You seem to think I’m making excuses for Kobe, but I’m not.”

            You have one for Kobe’s Game 7, you have one for the Mavs series last year. You have one for the ’08 Finals, where the Lakers were ALSO blown out in an elimination game. You have one for when the Lakers didn’t win titles right after Shaq was traded. You have an “excuse” for this man at every turn. But LBJ? For him, “excuses” aren’t acceptable, and anyone who makes an “excuse” is a “fanboy”.

            When you finally recognize the blatant double-standards in your posts, let me know.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 29, 2012, 11:58 am
          • “I’m on lebron because of all the things you could do to improve his game, the only thing he has had to do to win 1 ring minimum at this pt. is to play hard.”

            That simple, huh? Gee, never mind the undeniable fact that there are 9 other players on the court that you must also account for – no, LBJ playing hard is the only thing that’s necessary for him win a ring!

            Posted by The Realist #2 | February 29, 2012, 12:16 pm
        • Hey check out what D. Wade said:

          “In response to the continuing criticism of James, Wade said James finds himself in a losing situation.

          “It’s just LeBron,” Wade said with a smile. “No matter what LeBron would have done, if he missed the shot, they would have said he can’t make it. If he would have hit the shot, they would have said he could only make it in an All-Star Game. He had a great All-Star Game. If it wasn’t for him, we wouldn’t have even been in that situation with the way he caught fire.”

          Of course he’s 100% correct but that won’t stop the craziness.

          Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 8:36 pm
          • Excuses, excuses. Fascinating that Lebron ass-wipes hate Kobe Nation so much when they play the same ‘us-against-the-world’ trump card to dismiss any drop of sanity and objectivity in discussions.

            It’s just tiring. It’s exasperatingly stupid.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 1:30 pm
  105. that shots not taken stat or whatever is stupid. I have seen kobe hit the ball of his leg and turn it over (last year against the jazz, Ive seen him get palming violations, travelin on the last play of the game, I am willing to bet he has more turnovers than assists combine that with his shit field goal percentage and I would say kobe is absolutely putrid in clutch, this article isnt so much that lebrons better in the clutch ,hes not fantastic himself, but we really should focus on how shitty kobe bryant is in the clutch,I could give a damn if hes fearless or bites his jersey or whatever he sucks in the clutch.!!!!!

    Posted by samtotheg | February 28, 2012, 11:50 am
    • How is counting TO in a GW situation as a minus for a clutch stat stupid? Because you saw him turned the ball over? Is that it? Let me see.

      1. Including TO during GW time is stupid because Samthotheg saw Kobe turned the ball over
      2. He is willing to bet that Kobe “had more turnovers than assists”
      3. He contends that, TOs “combine….with his shit field goal percentage,… kobe is absolutely putrid in clutch”

      First you said including TOs is stupid. But then, flip-flop and included it to say that Kobe is putrid in clutch. So which is which? Classic! I love the logic of Kobe haters just as I love the Lebron ass-wipes.

      Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 12:52 pm
      • How is counting turnovers not a minus for a player in crunch time? If we could go back and find each GW opportunity in a players career and find when they had turnovers, and add to that assists, wouldn’t you want those numbers?

        Posted by pointguard40 | February 28, 2012, 2:35 pm
        • Precisely! The relevant stats in a GW scenario is:
          1. FG%
          2. Assists
          3. Turnovers
          4. Botched plays: player unable to get hold of the ball + player fails to create his shot + player fails to create for his teammate + teammate fails to make the assisted GW shot

          To normalise the stats and allow comparison among players from different teams, you also need to factor in “Team strength”: how often does it come to a GW situation relative to other teams?

          A composite metric out of those stats would then measure how clutch a player is:
          1. The metric will capture the player’s ability to take charge in GW situations (addressing the ‘no-show’ problem)
          2. It will capture his overall effectiveness that ultimately correlates to wins in GW situations

          GW FG% alone isn’t enough. It is a fallacy to conclude anything out of this stat since it is not the only factor that wins the game. Even the writer implied it when he had to explain Lebron’s pass to Donyell at length. The problem with this is it is a conditional probability – player has to decide first to take the shot before this stat becomes relevant. And that decision has, by itself, a probability – Lebron or Kobe could decide to take or not to take the shot. And this decision, and its probability, is part and parcel of their ‘clutch performance’.

          And when the writer concludes he’d have Lebron take the GW shot, I could just imagine Jordan, Bird, and Barkely laughing their ass off and collectively wondering if LBJ would even take it.

          Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 5:16 pm
          • Hilarious! I see you are still trying to muddy the waters with your diversionary ramblings.

            Here is the point of the article:

            “In my article, I cited the NBA’s standard Game Winning/Game Tying Shot Metric used by coaches and GMs throughout the league when scouting opposing teams – shot attempts made with the intent to either win or tie the game within the final 24 seconds, during which a player’s team is either tied or trails by three or fewer points – or in other words, a one-possession game (the concession 2-point basket in which a player’s team is down by 3 points is excluded from this metric).”

            Now, if you think all of your additional considerations (btw, the “botched plays” one is laughable) are more important than the “NBA’s standard Game Winning/Game Tying Shot Metric used by coaches and GMs throughout the league when scouting opposing teams” then why don’t you figure your own GW scenario out. Have at it.

            Of course you won’t do that. Instead you’ll just continue to argue a point that wasn’t made and build your silly strawman and tear it down.

            But congratulations, you’ve managed to turn the conversation to your faulty premises rather than the pretty solid points raised by the author though that’s to be expected since you don’t have solid ground to stand on in your argument against the article. So I suppose blowing smoke is your best option.

            Also, there was no “implication” in the writer’s explanation of Lebron’s pass to Marshall. He clearly explained what he meant. He brought it up so he could refute the “Lebron is reluctant” nonsense, which he did rather effectively, and to show the double standard applied to Lebron unlike other players who made the similar right basketball play.

            Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 8:28 pm
          • Also, to add to the below points, if you include assists and turnovers, the data is very likely to skew even more in Lebron’s favor. That’s probably why you added the “botched plays” garbage which, of course, expands on your “shot not taken” nonsense. Very amusing stuff…

            Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 8:43 pm
          • @ KS:

            Quite amusing that you’d defend the metric by way of saying that it is the accepted metric by coaches and GMs, and then swallow hook, line, and sinker, the writer’s bashing of the same coaches and GMs who overwhelmingly chose Kobe over Lebron. On one hand, you accept their judgment on what’s the right metric to measure clutch. On the other, you accept the derision over their judgment picking Kobe over Lebron. So which is which, are the coaches and GMs geniuses or stupid? Are they schizos?

            And yeah, another lame attempt to drag the argument to irrelevance. I have no agenda and no amount of accusations could change the fact that relying on GW FG% is wrong. And no amount of ad hominem could deny the simple fact that when a player commits a turnover, couldn’t get off a shot, or can’t even get to the ball on the last play, his team loses the game. These are the factors that GW FG% doesn’t take into account. So saying ‘hilarious!’, ‘you’re stupid’, ‘everyone uses GW FG%’, and ‘adding those will just make Kobe look worse’ doesn’t disprove my point, doesn’t falsify my claim that relying on that simple conditional probability is flawed. Any conclusion derived from it is a product of fallacious argument. Now argue intelligetly please bec you’re looking more and more like a retard for repeatedly rambling abt irrelevant things.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 9:24 pm
          • Also, challenging me to establish the metric to disprove my point that falsify the use of GW FG% as the right clutch stat is a fallacy as well: it is called ‘burden of proof’ fallacy. You see in logic, which you evidently don’t understand, I only need to establish that the claim is false by falsifying one of the premises. By pointing out that a player’s turnover during a GW situation does affect the game’s outcome, I already have refuted the premise that the GW situation could only be decided by a shot made or missed. That’s all that I have to do to refute any conclusion based on that premise. I don’t need to create alternative stats to prove my refutation. The burden of proof is not with me.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 28, 2012, 9:33 pm
          • @Jourdan,

            You’re an absurdly disingenuous character. Every time one of your dubious points is refuted you shift your argument. For example I just pointed out how you misrepresented the main point of the article in your attempt to discredit it and off you went babbling away on yet another irrelevant tangent. What GMs or coaches may believe is irrelevant to the point of the article which deals with facts not beliefs. You’re like a human whack-a-mole.

            Also, your hiding behind the burden of proof fallacy is ridiculous and ill informed. The author stated his premise and his parameters and to most reasonable people reading the article, met his burden of proof.

            OTOH, YOU, in your disingenuous and largely confused rebuttals, are claiming that there is a problem with the author’s article. It’s up to you to prove your claims though I realize your are merely arguing via assertions and have no intention to back up your claims. In fact you’ve gone even further out on the limb with the “botched plays” stupidity.

            You’re trying to be too clever by half and are failing badly. In the end, like I said earlier, you’re just blowing smoke.

            Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 11:06 pm
          • Seriously, did you even read the article? “The Title is Kobe Bryant vs Lebron James: Game Winning Shots” Is there something ambiguous about that?

            The author goes even further: “The game winning/game tying shot is arguably the most clutch shot in basketball. While any other shot attempt during a game offers a player an opportunity for redemption in the case of failure, the game winning/game tying is the most unforgiving, since unless a player’s team is tied, there are no second chances. Either the player makes the shot and succeeds, or he misses and fails. Its one shot for all the marbles, and the outcome can mean the difference between a win or a loss. And in the playoffs, it becomes even more consequential.

            So who would you rather have taking the last shot at the end of a playoff game? Kobe Bryant vs. Lebron James?”

            How much more explicit do you need it to be? Hell, NBA Realist goes further than he has to and even answers questions about why some people might feel differently than the objective data indicates.

            The bottom line is that all of your talk about turnovers, assists, botched plays, etc. is YOUR argument and is BESIDES THE MAIN POINT of the article which to refresh your memory is called: “Kobe Bryant vs Lebron James: Game Winning Shots”

            Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 11:31 pm
          • So now, please explain how talking about turnovers “falsifies the premise” of an article that examined the following: “Kobe Bryant vs Lebron James: Game Winning Shots”

            It doesn’t. You’ve talked yourself in circles. You lose.

            Posted by ks | February 28, 2012, 11:47 pm
          • @ KS,

            “Is there something ambiguous about that (title – The Title is Kobe Bryant vs Lebron James: Game Winning Shots”)?” NO, the title was not ambiguous. However, the article itself went BEYOND the title . If it was just about what title says, all that I would have seen should be 2 tables, one for Lebron’s GW shots, and another for Kobe’s. Are these the only information presented? NO.

            The author INTERPRETED the statistics. HE MADE AN ARGUMENT OUT OF THE FACTS. The minute he did that, he went beyond a “simple listing of the facts” (your words in case you don’t remember).

            What argument was presented? Let me remove the clutter and present it in unequivocal terms
            Premise 1. “The game winning/game tying shot is arguably the most clutch shot in basketball”
            Premise 2: Lebron James has outperformed Kobe in game winning/game tying shot
            Conclusion: Lebron should take the GW shot.
            I’ll revisit this argument later..

            ———————-

            On another note, it is funny that you yourself had described how the writer went beyond what the title has implied . Borrowing your words, “NBA Realist GOES FURTHER THAN HE HAS TO and even answers questions about why some people might feel differently than the objective data indicates”.

            a. The writer indeed SQUARELY addressed one interesting point that wittingly attempts to address the weakness of argument. He addressed one of the reasons “why NBA fans still insist that Bryant, despite having only a 28% success rate, should be the overwhelming choice to take the last shot”, which is that “they believe that Kobe Bryant is the most “fearless” and most willing to take the game winning/game tying shot while other players shy away from the big moment”. He actually took “the opportunity to dispel this immediately”. The refutation was however false, which I will expound on later. But my point here is this: THE WRITER TACITLY ACCEPTS THAT THE PLAYER’S WILLINGNESS TO TAKE THE GW SHOT IS A CRITICAL FACTOR IN ESTABLISHING THE CREDIBILITY OF HIS CONCLUSION: THAT LEBRON IS THE RIGHT MAN TO TAKE THE GW SHOT. Else, why try to dispel Kobe’s “fearlessness”?

            b. The writer also wrote an apology for Lebron’s pass to Donyell, explaining that “Lebron James did not pass up that shot because he was AFRAID OR UNWILLING”. I already said that this apology is just a SUBJECTIVE RATIONALISATION OF LEBRON’s FAILURE so I won’t go at lenght to discuss the lack of objectivity there. The point that I want to highlight at this point is this: THE WRITER FELT COMPELLED TO DEFEND LEBRON PASSING UP A GW SHOT. My question is why? Why dispute the “evidence of Lebron’s reluctance in last-shot situations” if this is irrelevant to the question of “who should take the last shot?” as you were saying it is. And oh, in case you miss this, he made this statement “I will take a fearful who makes his game winning/game tying shots at a higher success rate than a fearless player who misses them – the only thing that matters is the result”. This is an acknowledgment that THE WRITER TOOK INTO CONSIDERATION LEBRON’S DECISION-MAKING ABILITY, e.g., that he will pass the ball from time-to-time, IN A GW SITUATION AND STILL WENT WITH HIM OVER KOBE. Given this, why is it not acceptable for me (and the rest of your so-called Lebron haters) to exactly do the opposite and say Lebron’s not the guy we want to take the GW shot since we don’t “trust” his decision-making in a GW situation?
            Isn’t a case of double standards when you allow the writer to exclude other important factors, such as the shots that players did not take (like excluding Lebron’s pass to Donyell that led to a loss), and yet call me stupid for raising the challenge that excluding them actually is fallacious? That it distorts the notion of “clutch”?

            —–
            Now, let me go back to the argument, the MAIN POINT of the article.
            Premise 1. “The game winning/game tying shot is arguably the most clutch shot in basketball”
            Premise 2: Lebron James has outperformed Kobe in game winning/game tying shot
            Conclusion: Lebron should take the GW shot.

            How is this fallacious? Hmm, I’d outline them all.

            1. It commits a formal fallacy called “base rate fallacy”. How? Because Premise 2 is a probability judgment based on conditional probabilities that DO NOT take into account the effect of prior probabilities. In layman’s terms, the GW FG% is a conditional probability. Before you can hit or miss a game-winning/game-tying shot, you should first need to ATTEMPT a shot. And attempting a shot carries with it a probability, i.e., a player isn’t able to shoot the ball 100% in game-winning/game-tying situations.
            As I vividly narrated before, if a player had made 7 of 10 shots but turned the ball over in other 10 GW situations, the player would have registered an amazing 70% FG% despite that he was grossly ineffective in GW situations. In reality, he’s just made 35% of all the game-winning/game-tying opportunities that he had.

            2. It is a fallacy of single cause, or in layman’s terms called oversimplification. The WHOLE argument rests on the premise that a GW FG% is THE only metric used by ‘most NBA fans still insist that Bryant…,should be the overwhelming choice to take the last shot.
            I don’t think all 78% of the “expert GMs”, Bird, Jordan, Barkley, casual fans, and probably most of his player-peers in NBA chose Kobe Bryant over Lebron as most “clutch” simply because they were hoodwinked by Kobe’s spectacular GW shots, and does not know or willfully ignored his atrocious GW FG%. That’s too simplistic an explanation, which is quite frankly, is a bit insulting. Could it be that GMs, NBA who’s-who, casual fans, etc. actually use a MORE COMPREHENSIVE SET of reasons/stats/evidences than just GW FG%? My guess is as good as anyone else. But the point is presenting GW FG% as the only metric to choose who’s the BEST to entrust that shot is fallacious.

            Simply put, using GW FG% is just cherry-picking. It ignores a significant portion of related data – TOs, passes, incomplete plays, since they contradict the relevance of that stat.

            4. Your argument to stick with “just the GW shot” itself commits fallacy of faulty generalization called an “ovewhelmingly exception”. The conclusion, “Lebron should take the GW shot” was indeed accurate, provided that it comes with qualifications that eliminate so many factors of a game-winning situation that what remains of the conclusion is TOO WATERED DOWN to even matter or be relevant. In other words, who cares if the stats say that Lebron should take the last shot when, say, you couldn’t be sure that he’ll take it?

            Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 2:22 am
          • @ KS,

            oh sorry, the fallacy should have read “overwhelming exception” in case you might argue that I can’t falsify his argument by way of a wrongly spelled fallacy.

            and I can’t resist laughing at this: ” … He brought it up so he could refute the “Lebron is reluctant” nonsense, which he did rather effectively, and to show the double standard applied to Lebron unlike other players who made the similar right basketball play.”

            LOL.

            Hmm, questions:

            1. WHY the need to explain “Lebron’s reluctance” IF it was IRRELEVANT to choosing who to take the GW shot? WHY???

            2. When does “passing to a lesser teammate” the unequivocal “right play”?

            The writer exalted the fearless (pun intended) Lebron and said that “no wing player in the NBA can get themselves a higher percentage shot while driving to the basket than Lebron James can, as evidenced by his high FG%”. Given this, should the “right play” FOR LEBRON be a drive to the basket for a lay-up than passing the ball to a LESSER TEAMMATE who will take a lower percentage jump-shot?

            IF he really has the “strong ability to CREATE HIS OWN SHOT, and most importantly, has DEMONSTRATED PRIOR SUCCESS IN MAKING…(the) shot”, then why make the pass??? WHY? Because he was double-teamed? I thought he was THAT good at creating shots, and making them! On one hand, you people would choose Lebron because he could create and make shots. On the other hand, you excuse him for making the pass. Wow. Isn’t that the double-standard?

            It’s pretty simple. You crown him as the “best” at creating and making the game-winning shot and then go make excuses if he decides not to take them. And when people point this out, you’d attempt to REDUCE the argument to sticking to titles. Amazing. Really intelligent.

            Posted by JOURDAN | February 29, 2012, 5:50 am
          • And let me zoom-in on this to stress the point:

            NBA Realist said “I will take a fearful who makes his game winning/game tying shots at a higher success rate than a fearless player who misses them – THE ONLY THING THAT MATTER IS THE RESULT”

            What result? a MADE GAME-WINNING SHOT. A shot that WINS the game.

            If the result is all that matters, then WHY EXCLUDE ALL FACTORS THAT DO NOT GIVE THE RESULT?

            I get that NBA Realist would choose the fearful Lebron because of his high GW FG%. It’s fine to choose someone you like for whatever reason you have. I respect that devotion as a fan. We all do root for someone without really figuring why. But to parade that Lebron is the best player to take the GW shot as a FACT, or an argument built on FACTS, is just delusional. Unless a suitable metric is shown, a metric that could stand the test of reason that would support that conclusion, it remains as a MERE opinion. Not even a good one.

            Posted by JOURDAN | February 29, 2012, 6:12 am
      • I didnt mean counting the turnover, i meant the shot not taken crap ala kobe or lebron chooses to pass you consider that a shot not taken,thats dumb as fuck,when you are tripled or double or the guy whos guarding is playin lock down Defense, a pass to a teammate is not a shot not taken, its the correct basketball play ,you just trying to manipulate the criteria to support yer man crush kobe bryant,there is no flip flop here you dumb fuck, i stated the shot not taken criteria that yer goofy ass made up is dumb and the wrong way to look at it,and Kobe still fucking sucks in the clutch ,again I am willing to bet he has more turnovers than assists and combined with a shit percentage,hmm I am willing to say hes one of the worst clutch players of all time!!!!!!

        Posted by samtotheg | February 28, 2012, 9:42 pm
  106. “Now, if you think all of your additional considerations (btw, the “botched plays” one is laughable) are more important than the “NBA’s standard Game Winning/Game Tying Shot Metric used by coaches and GMs throughout the league when scouting opposing teams” then why don’t you figure your own GW scenario out.”

    I’m sure people recognize that things such as assists, turnovers, etc. are also an important part of the game-winning scenario, but when the GW is brought up the analyst/typical fan usually focus on the shot itself (and the player’s ability to convert the attempt).

    Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 10:54 pm
    • And that’s partly the topic that the author is addressing here: the perception that Kobe is head-and-shoulders above LBJ when he shoots the GW.

      Posted by The Realist #2 | February 28, 2012, 11:05 pm
      • Its pretty pointless, Lebron haters will always find something to get on him about no matter what facts are brought to their attention. They remind me a lot of tea party members in that its like talking to a brick wall.

        Posted by nightbladehunter | February 29, 2012, 7:10 am
      • @The NBA Realist #2

        I should have taken your earlier advice and not engaged the whck-a-mole. Lol. Anyway, you are exactly right. I would go even further. That is the main topic the author discussed and is the main focus of his analysis. The perception doesn’t jibe with the facts.

        Since certain posters can’t deal with that simple fact for whatever reason, we’ve been treated to a torrent of besides the point blather to the point where they are trying to substitute their arguments for the author’s argument.

        Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 7:36 am
        • No problem. Glad you also saw right through his tired and phony act.

          Being able to throw around the phrases “ad hominem”, “argumentum ad ______”, etc. from a website on the Internet doesn’t necessarily make you smart. Especially when your own posts reek of double-standards and falsehoods.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | February 29, 2012, 10:12 am
          • @ Realist #2,

            Rejoice in the fact that you have a convert in KS! Yehey! Congrats. Having another troll beside you is a win for you! Hahahaha

            Throwing ad hominems won’t turn your your Lebron asss-wiping lies to facts. And you not knowing logic is not my fault. True, you could get a list of fallacies on the internet; anything is on the internet. But understanding them is something you can’t get out of the web. I did have a logic course in the university as a part of getting an engg degree. And I do work with numbers. So I don’t have your inclination to bend stats, or make judgments which is ‘right’ or ‘wrong’. I just get the numbers. Numbers don’t lie but people do. And you, plus ur buddy troll KS, did a bad job at that.

            Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 1:13 pm
        • Hahaha. What simple fact again? Oh the title? Wow.

          1. I described at length how the author went beyond GW shots.
          2. I used your own words to point out that you admitted the same.
          3. I squarely address your accusations abt double-standards, dragging the discussion to irrelevance, not addressing the main point.
          4. I exactly pointed out what was the main point – an argument is offered to prove that Lebron should take the GW shot

          And you? Did you answer any of the points raised? No. Instead, you offer a lame-ass post that attempts to appeal to pity. I lose? Yeah right. Tell that to the marines.

          Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 1:04 pm
          • “Numbers don’t lie but people do”.

            Hahahaha..how many trite stock sayings do you have?

            “I just get the numbers.”

            Stop, my sides are hurting…

            Ok, here the analysis in question:

            Question: Kobe vs Lebron: Game Winning Shots

            Answer: Lebron James is 5/12 or 41.7% while Kobe Bryant is 7/25 or 28%.

            Um…..

            Well….

            Numbers don’t lie right?

            It’s pretty clear that you only get the numbers you like.

            Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 10:45 pm
  107. Jourdan this year against the mavs kobe bryant passed the ball to derek fisher to take the shot at the end, according to you , kobe made the wrong play by passing to a lesser player, even though fisher hit the 3 and the lakers won, kobe made the wrong move and should have shot that mess himself ,right?

    Posted by samtotheg | February 29, 2012, 9:28 am
    • He made a play that led to a win. So that’s a positive RESULT, a plus stat. If Derek didn’t hit the game-winner, they’d lost and it’d be a loss, which would be a negative stat. That’s all there is to it. Pluses/minuses. Results. Statistics. A quantitative analysis doesn’t bother to differentiate what is the ‘right play’ to get the result. The subjectivity of judging which play is right is irrelevant in quantitative analyses. The only thing that matters is the result – a made shot that wins the game, not how the player got it.

      Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 12:52 pm
      • It’s really hard not to laugh at you. Yet again, you sidestep away from a valid point with another rhetorical sleight of hand. The odd thing is that all of your mostly suspect points have been answered again and again but you just spin different variations of them and keep on going. If you were half as clever as you think you are it might be interesting but since you are not, it’s tiresome. Btw, “Tell it to the Marines”? WTF? Um…yeah….

        Soooo the only thing that matters is results, huh? Good, then you shouldn’t have any problems with the author’s GW shot analysis, right? After all, it’s primarily a listing of RESULTS of a GW shot analysis. In your pompus manner that would be “Pluses/minuses. Results. Statistics.” LOL!

        Well if that’s case then you’ve wasted an awful amount of time trying to qualify the article with highly subjective stuff like your “botched plays” metric.

        Anyway, as you well know, in the instance samtotheg is talking about both Kobe and Lebron made the right play. They passed to wide open teammates. The END result was different but that more reflects on Fisher and Marshall than Kobe and Lebron.

        Alright consider this your one mole whacking for the day. I’m sure you’ll pop up again with another spin soon. You do seem to have terminal “lastworditis”.

        Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 2:34 pm
        • Oh from a “simple” list, it now sheepishly transforms itself to “primarily” a list. Wow!

          Oh the right play? Hmm, let me see…

          It is interesting that most Lebron apologists like you would offer stats to support your conclusion, that Lebron is the best player to take the game-winning/game-tying shot, but then appeal to conventional basketball wisdom, such making the “right play” to qualify the conclusion, and overwhelmingly except all other factors other than their chosen stat – the GW FG%.

          But let me tackle that question of the “right play” the way quants normally do. And yeah, quants’ definition of a “right play” is objectively based on guess what? NUMBERS.

          Facts
          1. Lebron’s career FG% is 0.482 vs. Donyell Marshall’s 0.435
          2. Lebron’s playoff FG% is 0.460 vs. Marshall’s 0.399
          3. Lebron’s playoff GW FG% is 0.45, and oh, I can’t get Marshall’s GW FG%
          4. The league average GW FG% converges ~ 0.30

          Analysis:
          1. Given that I dont’ have Marshall’s GW FG% and that we’re taking about what would a “right play” in the playoff GW should look like, I could conservatively take his playoff FG% as his GW FG%. This is conservative estimate in the sense that even the best players FG% drop in the GW situations. It wouldn’t make any sense to assume that Donyell would buck that trend.
          2. Donyell’s FGs would include an array of shots from jump shots to lay-ups, etc, with each having its own FG%. But for the sake of the argument, we could again conservatively take that Donyell’s percentage at jump shots would approximate his FG%. This is conversative enough since it is statistically known that jump shots are lesser percentage shots than lay-ups.
          3. Taken those, Donyell’s GW FG% would conservatively sit at 0.399 while Lebron’s at 0.45.
          4. Further, and I admit I don’t have numbers for these, I’d surmise that most of his shots were open. After all, it’s not like Donyell’s the guy who would be doubled/tripled-team. Given that he’s more a set-shot guy, He just missed most of them, like 60% of them.

          Given the analysis above, is passing to a lesser teammate, say Donyell, the quintessential “right play”? This is how quants challenge the “conventional basketball wisdom”. You bring numbers because numbers don’t lie.

          Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 4:45 pm
          • By the pure numbers, LeBron IS an infinitely better choice than Marshall. By the numbers, Bryant is also a better option.

            The trouble is, the raw data does NOT tell us of specific circumstance.

            What was Marshall’s FG% when he is wide open as to LeBron’s when he is covered?

            What is Bryant’s FG% on a three attempt with a hand in his face against an open Derek Fisher?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | February 29, 2012, 5:33 pm
          • Thank you Paulie for highlighting those questions…

            That is exactly what I like to hear. People clamouring for numbers.

            The simple answers to your questions is “I don’t know”.

            But that’s the beauty of such answer…The “I don’t know” answer BEGS further analysis.

            Calling a game play like “passing to an open teammate” a “right play” by virtue that “every coach, GM, soul on this planet teaches that it’s the right way” is committing argumentum ad populum.

            And that’s the point I’m trying to make – appeal to “conventional wisdom” has NO PLACE in STAT-WORLD. It’s those biases that stats attempt to demolish.

            So what I ask is consistency. If people will make conclusions out of numbers, then they ought to use numbers as well when they qualify the exceptions. Don’t offer me “matter-of-fact” statements like “passing is the right play” just because you subjectively think it is.

            What people ignore is the fact that the writer had been inconsistent. On one hand, he exalted Lebron as a guy who could seemingly get to the rim at will to hit the game-winning shot based on a quantified stat – GW FG%. On another, he excused him for passing to a lesser teammate who’d shoot a jumpshot based on “conventional basketball wisdom”. This double-standard is appalling to me.

            And as a tease, here’s a question for you on Lebron and Marshall:

            If you believe the writer that Lebron is the best guy to create and make a GW shot, then why couldn’t he get out of a double-team to exactly create and make a shot?

            Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 7:51 pm
        • Is it just me that had this problem with the conclusion that Lebron’s the right guy to win the game on the last shot just bec of his superior GW FG%? Or are there any other guys who had addressed the question in a more comprehensive manner?

          Yes, there are sane people in this world who, unlike you, aren’t predisposed to sticking with fallacies.

          Read these articles:
          Part 1: http://82games.com/clutchplayers.htm

          Part 2: http://82games.com/clutchplay2.htm

          Part 3: http://82games.com/clutchplay3.htm

          Now, that’s quantitative analysis!

          And btw, Kobe turned out not to be be the best “clutch” guy. I don’t give a shit at all that he’s not. All I am after are OBJECTVITIY and LOGIC.

          Those articles have them. You and this article? I’d repeat: Tell your stories to the Marines.

          Posted by Jourdan | February 29, 2012, 4:52 pm
          • “It is interesting that most Lebron apologists like you would offer stats to support your conclusion, that Lebron is the best player to take the game-winning/game-tying shot, but then appeal to conventional basketball wisdom, such making the “right play” to qualify the conclusion, and overwhelmingly except all other factors other than their chosen stat – the GW FG%.”

            Whack! Ridiculously false premise. Full stop. The comparison is between Lebron and Kobe not Lebron being the best player to take the game winning/tying shot in general. You are such a persistently dishonest poster and it’s funny how far you have to distort and conflate positions to take off on your dubious tangents. Thanks for playing. Time for you to find another hole to pop up from as this one is closed.

            Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 9:43 pm
          • Also there was no “clarifying the conclusion”. The explanation of the Marshall thing was to simply rebut a false narrative about Lebron being unwilling to take the GW shot. It in no way changed the actual data of Lebron vs Kobe in GW shots. It was in addition to not clarifying.

            Goodness, you must have been a terrible student. I can’t imagine the amount of “red ink” teachers wasted on your fatuous nonsense. I suppose you told them the quaint “Tell It to the Marines” saying too. I’m sure they had a good laugh at your your obvious smug pretension though they probably got annoyed when you tried to lecture them on logical fallacies after engaging in them and in maddeningly disingenuous reasoning.

            Btw, Whack!

            Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 10:02 pm
          • Though it’s distinction without a difference in this instance, it should be qualifying instead of clarifying above.

            Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 10:06 pm
          • @ KS,

            A> “Whack! Ridiculously false premise. Full stop. The comparison is between Lebron and Kobe not Lebron being the best player to take the game winning/tying shot in general. ”

            Wow! hahaha. What a grave lack of comprehension! Of course that statement already implied that it was a comparison between Kobe and Laberon. When did I ever give the context that I have drifted away from that comparison AND went to generalities

            I just said that the MAIN POINT of the article was this:
            Premise 1. “The game winning/game tying shot is arguably the most clutch shot in basketball”
            Premise 2: Lebron James has outperformed Kobe in game winning/game tying shot
            Conclusion: Lebron should take the GW shot.

            I never thought that a person would have a short-term memory of a fish! hahaha. But for you, I’d remove the ambiguity (for a fish like you):
            ————

            It is interesting that most Lebron apologists like you would offer stats to support your conclusion, that Lebron is the best player OF THE TWO PERSONS WHO ARE SUBJECTS OF THE ARTICLE to take the game-winning/game-tying shot, but then appeal to conventional basketball wisdom, such making the “right play” to qualify the conclusion, and overwhelmingly except all other factors other than their chosen stat – the GW FG%.
            ————
            There. Clear? tsk tsk tsk. Context people. Context. Let’s not forget the context.

            B> ” Also there was no “clarifying the conclusion”. The explanation of the Marshall thing was to simply rebut a false narrative about Lebron being unwilling to take the GW shot. It in no way changed the actual data of Lebron vs Kobe in GW shots. It was in addition to not clarifying.”

            I’ll repost the conclusion: Lebron should take the GW shot.

            Again, that statement implies who should take the shot between Lebron and Kobe (in case you misread that again as “Lebron…generally”)

            No, the Marshall apology does not change the actual GW data. When did I ever say or even imply that?

            Rather, NBA Realist attempted to prove that “Lebron’s reluctance to take the GW shot” is NOT TRUE so that the conclusion arising ONLY FROM GW FG% would qualify as valid and logical. If Lebron’s reluctance to shoot couldn’t be downplayed, then the conclusion based only on SHOTS THAT WERE TAKEN is severely weakened, since the PROBABILITY AT WHICH A PLAYER TAKE THE GW SHOTS really becomes a RELEVANT FACTOR – a factor that the conclusion conveniently ignores.

            And pls. Red ink? hahaha. Whatever floats your boat.

            Posted by JOURDAN | March 1, 2012, 1:59 am
      • so now , we are judging kobe and lebron on what donyell marshall and derek fisher do, damn dude you are dumb, the right play is to find the open guy ,ok ….or drive when the opportunity presents itself or shoot if its there, you HAVE TO READ THE DEFENSE AND REACT ACCORDINGLY , that holds true for not just basketball but all sports, in baseball,you dont get aggressive and try to steal home in the 9th to tie the game ,unless the opportunity is there, in MMA ,you dont throw a roundhouse to the head in the 3rd round for the knock out , cuz yer down in the scorecards,unless their is an opening. Kobe shooting and not reading the situation properly(at least most of the time) is foolish, but I get it now, you either A ,like kobe and are trying to find some lame ass reason to put him over lebron or B. you have a disdain for players who are not hyper aggressive (you probaly hate boxers who are counterpunchers and love the brawler types) or maybe its both.

        Posted by samtotheg | February 29, 2012, 5:42 pm
        • Yeah, we’ve gone way down the mole hole. I feel like Bill Murray in “Caddyshack”. Apparently, in addition to what you posted, we are now we are not faulting people for passing to wide open “lesser teammates” but only if those teammates miss the shot. Yes, it’s gotten that that crazy.

          Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 10:21 pm
          • Argh…should be faulting people…

            Posted by ks | February 29, 2012, 10:23 pm
          • Yup it has been crazy bec you’d onlu respond or comment on side-issues. So let’s get things back to the point of the article and my refutation. Hopefully, you would respond squarely this time.

            Fact: Lebron’s GW FG% is better than Kobe
            Fiction: Lebron should take the GW shot bec of the aforementioned fact.

            Why fiction? Bec the argument is a fallacy. How?

            1. Formally, it denies the relevance of prior events leading to GW shot. It commits a base-rate fallacy

            2. Informally, it is guilty of using one cause to conclude despite that winning on a GW shot is dependent on many causes. It commits cherry-picking when it only use GW FG% out of the many.

            3. It is a hasty generalization that has an overwhelming exception since the point of making a GW shot is to win the game on last possession, not making the GW shot per se. Hence, by zooming only on GW shot, the conclusion has no merit in establishing anything of relevance abt the relative strength of Lebron or Kobe in a last possession scenario.

            Now go, make a counter-argument to refute my assertions instead of imagining how I did in school. Stop using irrelevance to side-step the discussion.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 1, 2012, 1:32 pm
  108. boyer fact is kobe quit on his suns team i havent seen bron do it yet ….look at the youtube clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGoxIvuPtmo

    in that clip kobe took two 3′s in the 3rd quarter and a funky shot off the backboard in the 4th quarter a majority of those passes where kobe jus passing it behind the 3 point line and standing still or walkin back towards the defensive end, if he wanted to get his guys involved why did he not drive and kick since when does good basketball include passing the ball behind tthe 3point line to a guy 5 feet away from him also behind the 3point line, he quit period end of story.

    Posted by samtotheg | February 29, 2012, 12:40 pm
  109. you forgot some of kobes MADE game winning shots, like how about the one against Miami in 2010…. recount your stuff, and it doesnt matter what lebron makes or misses/ because when you get down to it, Lebrons presence is not heard of in the 4th

    Posted by joseph waldo | February 29, 2012, 7:10 pm
  110. and you forget the multiple game winners, he has had on the Raptors just from 2010-2012

    Posted by joseph waldo | February 29, 2012, 7:15 pm
  111. Add the game-winning shot that Lebron decided not to take in Utah (02Mar2012) as one of the those shots that will not make it into that GW FG% stat.

    Will you still pick Lebron to take the last shot? When will he take it?

    1. Lebron with the ball 4 seconds on the clock
    2. His stat in the 4th quarter: 17 points, 8 of 9 FGs, along with 1 trey.
    3. Only 1 player stands between him and the basket.
    4. He passed the ball to Haslem.

    Wow.

    Right play? Textbook yes, maybe in the 1st quarter.

    Definitely not in a game-winning situation. Definitely after what happened in the AS.

    I feel sorry for Lebron. He just doesn’t get it. Winning is not just about doing the right play. Anyone can execute a right play. Winning is knowing what he is and doing what he’s capable of, not passing up the chance because “it’s the right play”.

    Posted by Jourdan | March 3, 2012, 4:13 am
    • I wouldn’t say it was an awful play to pass to Haslem for a wide open elbow jumper. But, you’re right. If he’ supposed to be so great at GW shots, then shoot the ball. If he rarely shoots it, then what’s the pt.? And he was on fire, and he was very clutch in the 4th overall, but he shies away from the big moment once again.

      There were several right plays on that final play last night. Passing to Haslem was one of the them. Another right play would be to rise up and shoot a fairly wide open jumper from the left wing 18 ft. out. And another right play would’ve been to drive to the basket against Millsap. He had the line and the momentum to get to the hole, and had a great chance to either score and/or get fouled.

      Posted by boyer | March 3, 2012, 10:53 am
      • “If he’ supposed to be so great at GW shots, then shoot the ball. If he rarely shoots it, then what’s the pt.?”

        He shot it the most out of anyone on the Heat roster last season. Posters of your ilk whined about it anyway, and insisted that someone else (Wade) should shoot it instead. So what’s the point, Boyer? Do you simply want him to entertain the other side of the lose-lose standard that you set up for him?

        Also, offense was not the reason the Heat lost the game.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 3, 2012, 11:23 am
        • Yeah, it’s predictable isn’t it? You just knew the usual suspects would be here with their “Heads I win, tails you lose” rationales.

          Lebron saw the double team coming and passed to a wide open Haslem. If people knew anything about the players rather than carrying their agendas around they would’ve realized that that’s Haslem’s shot which he has hit over and over again for Heat. It’s not like Lebron passed to Haslem for a 3pt shot.

          The notion that the pass was the right play in the 1st qt but not the 4th is absurd but not as absurd as saying AS game!! (lol) chatter should inform what he does on the court. Just more of the usual bs.

          Posted by ks | March 3, 2012, 1:26 pm
          • “Yeah, it’s predictable isn’t it? You just knew the usual suspects would be here with their “Heads I win, tails you lose” rationales.”

            What’s even more amusing is how the usual suspects continue to remain incognizant of the double-standards.

            But then again, I guess they need something to argue about, right?

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 3, 2012, 4:32 pm
        • When you step back and think about it, it really is crazy. Lebron is in the midst of a historic season. He will probably have the highest PER ever and it’s conceivable that he could win MVP, DPOY and the scoring title but all Skip Bayless Nation wants to talk about is an AS game and “shots not taken” bs. I guess they are really boxed in huh? lol.

          Posted by ks | March 3, 2012, 2:15 pm
      • boyer you would not have to worry about a clutch shot from kobe this sunday they are gonna get blown the fuck out and kobes gonna prove he doesnt belong on the court with lebron and d wade.

        Posted by samtotheg | March 3, 2012, 12:27 pm
      • Yup, you’re right. In that pick-and-roll situation, there were 3 textbook plays to make. And I wonder why people still make excuses for Lebron not showing up. I wonder why passing to Haslem became the only right play:

        1. They offer the excuse that Haslem has knock that shot before

        Yes, he did. But to extrapolate to include the situation against Utah denies the value of stats…

        Lebron at that point in the game is 8 of 9 in the fourth, mostly on jumpers. His FG% is at a mighty 67% (16 of 24)

        Udonis has only attempted 4 shots, hitting 2 before he took the last shot.

        Stat-wise, Lebron should have taken the last shot. He has higher FG%, which is even more significant since he has taken more (24 shots vs Haslem’s 2), reducing the effect of random ‘chance’.

        So from stat perspective, Lebron didn’t make the right play.

        2. A layup is a higher percentage shot than a jump shot.

        Given that Lebron had the line with only Millsap as the defender, going for a layup or dunk would have been a better play than passing to Haslem for a jumpshot. He has done exactly this same play in the past; he had taken the ball to the hole even the screener was left open. The last-sec decision he made against Utah seems a bail-out given that he could have done what he has done in the past and that’s to take the ball strong and make a high-percentage layup or dunk….

        ….or get a foul.

        The referee would have called the foul if he did go strong and Millsap touched him and he could have won the game on the FT line. I don’t know the stat abt referees calling cheap fouls for the star players in dying secs but I have te hunch that it happens, based on anecdotal evidence.

        And I find it amusing that Lebron ass-wipes offer these excuses

        1. Lebron has taken more GW shots last season.

        How is this relevant? Again, irrelevant. He had the chance to take a GW shot, he passed up on it. Those are facts that facts last yr wouldn’t change.

        2. Lebron ‘would have….’ despite anything he does.

        Irrelevant. What Lebron haters feel or say is irrelevant to the contention that Lebron will routinely pass up GW shots.

        3. Lebron is having the best stat season of all time.

        Yup, true and I am happy for that since I root for him to succeed. But it still doesnt’t change the fact that he passed up and will pass up the GW shot, which is the whole point of this discussion that people attempt to side-step with fallacies after fallacies.

        Only an irrational devotion would compel anyone to not accept the fact that part and parcel of Lebron’s mighty game is his reluctance to take the GW shot.

        Posted by Jourdan | March 3, 2012, 3:37 pm
        • LOL! I see you’ll still trying to bait folks with your usual name- calling tantrums and suspect premises, bald assertions and bad assumptions though I do love how you continually try to frame the discussion to your liking. Feeling lonely?

          Posted by ks | March 3, 2012, 4:14 pm
          • Nope. Why should I feel lonely? I hear Lebron was feeling a bit down, so you might want to tweet him that you could jack him off.

            Seriously, you can’t offer anything that remotely show some semblance of intelligence.

            And pls, why is passing out of a pick-and-roll a better the right play in the first qtr? Bec a missed jump shot by a 37% shooter won’t lead to an instant loss.

            In game-winning time, a drive to the basket by a superstar against single coverage is a better play, esp when you’re red hot in the 4th with 89% FG%, and recently a bad call from the ref. Those are FACTs that made the pass discombulating. Lebron should have taken that shot.

            For the kicks, I also blame Spoelstra. He should have told Lebron to take anyone with him to the hoop in case he got single coverage, or he could just draw up an iso for the red hot Lebron and force him to win the game and complete his hero ball.

            And yeah, Wade was the goat. No one has denied that. But the game could have been won still. And Lebrin failed yet again on the final play.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 3, 2012, 10:05 pm
        • Just found this site and think its one of the best on the web.

          Jourdan: reading through all the comments and as a life long Cavs fan who openly hates Lebron James, I have to actually defend him. Exactly which playoff games are you referring to when you say that Lebron James deferred on the last shot? I agree with the Realist in that the Donyell Marshall incident was the best basketball play, but even if you disagree, and having watched all of those playoff games, I’m curious as to what other piece of evidence exists in which Lebron passed on the last shot in the playoffs.

          Also, would you say that Kobe should have been penalized when he passed to Derrick Fisher on the GW shot in the 2009 Finals? Or is your philosophy limited to “the end justifies the means”?

          Posted by Trailblazer8 | March 3, 2012, 9:12 pm
          • Hey, the quick answer is that I don’t know when he has deferred on the last shot in the playoffs. I don’t keep track of what Lebron does.

            The point that I raised against the argument is that you can’t discount Lebron’s reluctance to take the GW shot when you’re faced with the question of selecting him to take the last shot. It’s a very real occurrence with Lebron and among them are the famous Donyell pass and the recent ones – the intercepted pass last AS and the pass to Haslem.

            Admittedly, those are regular season games. But there’s no assurance that he’d not do the same during the playoffs. Granted that he has not passed up on a shot in those 12 GW shots, no one and probably not even Lebron himself could be 100% sure that he’d take the 13th. Hence, to ONLY rely on GW FG% as the only measure to unequivocally conclude that Lebron should take the last shot is fallacious. Again, the stats involving shots not taken – such as turnovers, assists, shots missed by teammates from Lebron passes, botched/incomplete/broken plays – should ALL be counted. On broader terms, the probability at which Lebron takes a GW shot should be considered rather than relying completely on a conditional probability such as a GW FG%.

            I will repeat my contention:

            A player should be rewarded for ALL his actions that led to a win and penalized for his actions that led to a loss during a game-winning/game-tying situation.

            (+) shots made, shots assisted

            (-) shots missed, missed shots by teammates coming from a player, turnovers, botched/incomplete/broken plays

            When a superstar gives up the ball, THAT decision should count for or against the superstar. The quality of a superstar’s decision is part and parcel of his greatness. Whether a player does the “right” or “wrong” play during a GW situation is irrelevant, only a WIN at the end of the game matters.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 1:51 am
    • we will see how yer boy kobe performs against lebron this sunday!!!

      Posted by samtotheg | March 3, 2012, 12:25 pm
  112. Haha last nights game was amazing to watch and really Lebron was the main culprit, his fourth quarter was a quarter that not many players in the league can pull off. BUT IMO the last play was TECHNICALLY the right play but in that certain situation it was the wrong play.

    I think when you’re a star player sometimes there are situations where FORCING a play is more advantageous than taking what the defense gives you. When you score 18 points in the quarter alone and you just hit two 22+ foot jumpers pulling up going left (he actually shot one from the waist), then forcing plays is actually encouraged. Are we honestly to believe that Lebron was in a situation he COULDN’T get out of? He has a big in Millsap (who had a bad ankle and was doubtful to even play) trying to stop him from getting where he wanted to, he could’ve easily blew past him get to the rim and either get a bucket or a foul (which was really likely given the questionable one they just gave up on the other end and, well it is the best player in the league). Or he could’ve gotten to a spot where he was comfortable and hit a shot pulling up, again to his left. Oh and Haslem was open but the man has been pretty poor knocking down his shot this year (37% from midrange) and he only had 4 shots prior so again I would’ve rather saw Lebron force something.

    I don’t think Lebron made the TECHNICALLY right plays in his last two field goal attempts but then again he dictated what he wanted to do. On that last play, he willingly let the DEFENSE dictate what they wanted to do, because at the end of the day, I’m sure the jazz would’ve rather Haslem have that last shot than Lebron.

    One last point lol, if there’s any star player to blame last night its definitely D-wade. Two fouls on jumpshots to give up 6 points and 2 missed field goals with 1 missed free throw is what broke down that comeback.

    Posted by stillshining | March 3, 2012, 3:03 pm
    • I hear what you are saying but you are sort of contradicting yourself. First you say Lebron was the main culprit and then you say if there’s any star player to blame last night it’s definitely D-Wade.

      IMO, the latter is true. As you listed D-Wade made some brutal plays down the stretch but we’re still talking about Lebron passing to a wide open teammate.

      Posted by ks | March 3, 2012, 3:41 pm
      • “last nights game was amazing to watch and really Lebron was the main culprit, his fourth quarter was a quarter that not many players in the league can pull off.”

        I think that’s what you’re pointing at, I was saying that Lebron was the main culprit for the game (and mainly the fourth quarter) being as amazing as it was. Then I complimented him for it after, I blamed Lebron for the game being amazing and I blamed Dwade for costing the Heat a chance at completing the comeback.

        Posted by stillshining | March 3, 2012, 4:28 pm
  113. @The Realist#2

    You know what’s even crazier? If you go to 82games and look at their last analysis of Game Winning Shots (through the ’09 reg. season) guess who is ranked #1?

    That’s right, none other than Lebron James!

    You know the guy who, according to the strident one here, will “continually pass up the GW shot attempt”. Yeah the unwilling guy, as indicated in the article here..“considering that after 8 playoff seasons, he is on a faster pace to take more game winning/game tying playoff shots in his career than Kobe Bryant.” It’s too crazy that dude thinks he’s a stat head but will literally ignore or try and flagrantly bs around relevant stats that don’t fit his opinion.

    Since the 82games analysis there have been 3 GW fgas in the playoffs and who knows how many during the regular season but yet this “unwilling” narrative has developed. Maybe it’s a post “Decision” thing but I swear it seems like opinions about Lebron are filtered through A. Wojo or Skip Bayless lenses.

    Posted by ks | March 3, 2012, 4:55 pm
    • “Maybe it’s a post “Decision” thing but I swear it seems like opinions about Lebron are filtered through A. Wojo or Skip Bayless lenses.”

      The difference however is that Skip Bayless isn’t a flip-flopper.

      Can’t say the same for the other posters here.

      Posted by The Realist #2 | March 3, 2012, 6:26 pm
    • I’ll also add that people who waste their time debating about Player X and “GW shots” are truly missing the point of basketball.

      I guarantee you that Spoelstra and the Heat brass are having none of it, and are instead running extra practices to solidify the Heat defense (which was the real reason they lost that game in Utah).

      Posted by The Realist #2 | March 4, 2012, 7:38 am
      • So the article was a waste of time? I get it. Everytime your boy toy Lebron’s abilities are questioned, the arguments become totally irrelevant.

        But if the arguments are for him, you’d sing praises like some whore.

        Yup, that’s the world you live in. Ass-wipe.

        Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 12:58 pm
        • “So the article was a waste of time?”

          Perhaps one of your infamous exercises in roundabout reasoning will help you figure this out. Start typing.

          In the meantime, I’ll happily move past your sorry posts and discuss basketball with others on this site. Especially those who can craft sentences without using homophobic insults and slurs.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | March 4, 2012, 4:38 pm
          • Heh! Dude is certainly a clown. The repetitive diversionary word fog and childish baiting is something else.

            Posted by ks | March 4, 2012, 7:49 pm
      • And what’s the point of basketball? You want to tell evryone abt basketball? You who have compared it to baseball? Wow. Are you high or something?

        Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 1:02 pm
        • Jourdan – I’m with you on counting turnovers as a negative, and assists as a positive. You are right in that those should be included as part of the clutch measurement. However, I completely disagree with you on a couple of points:
          1.) The playoffs are a different game, and you are correct that there are no assurances that ANYONE would be willing to pass on the last shot. However, based on Lebron’s history in the playoffs, the facts show that he is not likely to pass up the shot – but that he is likely to actually take it. He is on pace to take more GW shots than Kobe has. So based on his playoff – not regular season history – and based on the fact that there is no evidence during the playoffs that he has ever pass on a shot (which is a completely subjective metric in itself, completely reliant on the eye test which is the foundation of this post), why again would you state that Lebron is likely to pass on a GW shot? Until it happens, we need to work off past performance. And the probability shows that Lebron is 100% likely to make the right basketball play
          2.) As mentioned, passing on shots is a completely subjective metric. There is nothing tangible to measure this on.
          3.) Penalizing a player for making the right basketball play, and his teammate missing is completely silly. So if Kerr missed the GW shot in the 1997 Finals, you are really saying that MJ would have been unclutch? I agree that the right decision should be made, but sometimes the right decision does no result in a Win. Also, the “right decision” is oftentimes very subjective. You can’t hold that against the superstar. This is like the Ring Counting discussion all over again.

          Posted by Trailblazer8 | March 4, 2012, 2:44 pm
          • Exactly right!

            Posted by ks | March 4, 2012, 3:28 pm
          • To your last point, I believe the past decade or so of play-by-play data shows that star players aren’t much better than role players in game winning shot scenarios.

            I certainly agree that you should put the ball in the hands of your best players, but he better be wise enough to get the ball to an open teammate if he’s doubled.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 4, 2012, 4:48 pm
          • Thanks for the intelligent post. Here are my reaction to your comments

            1. The number of GW shots (12) is not statistically significant to make a valid conclusion that would deny the alternative hypothesis that Lebron will pass the ball in a playoff GW shot. This is especially true when he has done it, be in the playoffs or regular season. Behaviours don’t change much. It’s a myth that a person could flip a switch and be someone else when conditions change. This is not just my opinion out of thin air. Psychological studies have shown that habits aren’t easily broken. So not passing up on the 12 shots gives no guarantee at all that Lebron won’t on the 13th, 14th…or 25th time. That’s why you look at a bigger sample size – and that includes what Lebron does in the regular season.

            2. The rate at which Lebron takes the GW shot ignores the fundamental truth – team strength relative to opposition. The fact is that Lebron was with Cavs whilst Kobe was with the Lakers. What were the average margins of victories of Kobe’s Lakers and Lebron’s Cavs? Obviously, a relatively strong team wouldn’t need a lot of GW shots. So unless the GW FG% is normalised for team strength, it’s fallacious to rely on rates at which players take a GW shot to prove that one is not reluctant to take the shot.

            3. The sole metric to measure ‘reluctance’, if you really want to zoom in on it, is just the % at which the player takes GW shot when it presents itself (ratio of GW shots taken and GW opportunities). This is a better stat than referencing it against how fast the player is accumulating GW shots.

            4. Judging whether or not the passes made by the player as ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ is subjective…and that’s why I find it stupid to attach labels to them. All I am after are measuring the consequences of the decisions made by the superstars bec at the end of the day, all it matters is whether or not they made the call that led to wins. I am after a broad metric that wouldn’t dare explain what goes into that decision-making process, since that’s truly personal and there’s no point to psychoanalyse that whole situation. The main thing is to establish whether or not a superstar is able to make decisions that lead to wins in clutch.

            Jordan passed the ball to Kerr, and Paxson knowing that full well ahead of the events. He told Kerr and Paxson that he’d pass the ball to them. Those weren’t ‘read and react’ plays. They were deliberate. Jordan draw Johnson and Stockton as beautifully as one could imagine. And it is quite telling of Jordan’s decision-making when he chose the best ones to knock the shots down. But none of that would matter if those 2 guys didn’t make the shots. The would-be losses would be negatives on Jordan’s clutch performance. You see, I don’t get your ‘you can’t hold that against a superstar’ comment. Why not? In evry org, you hold the leader accoutable for making calls, right or wrong. Why excuse the leader on a bball team? What made it all-too different? The point is the team’s leader gets the lion share of the blame. And in a GW situation, that’s gonna be on your superstar.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 5:14 pm
          • Rather than ask a rhetorical question, like “what were the margins of victories in Cavs games and Laker games”; why not actually do the research and get the data.

            Wouldn’t having the data go further to reinforcing your position than rhetoric or supposition?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | March 4, 2012, 8:31 pm
          • I could and would have if the burden of proof was on me, e.g., I made the conclusion that is under attack.

            In this case, I did not make the assertion; I only refuted what has been presented. I sufficiently refuted the validity of the claim for its grave inconsideration of factors, e.g., team strength, that are relevant to his conclusion. Now, what happens after all the relevant factors are considered is totally beyond my refutation. I do not argue that Lebron shouldn’t take the last shot per se. Rather, I argue that such a conclusion arrived at using GW FG% is logically wrong.
            Also, the question wasn’t rhetorical at all. A rhetorical question is one that implies an answer that would support my counter-argument. In this case, I couldn’t care less abt the answer. Again, it’s the way by which the conclusion was made that I contest, not the absolute truth on whether or not Lebron is the right guy to take the GW shot. To me, the data presented is inconclusive because of overwhelming exceptions. I argue that it isn’t factual to crown Lebron as the guy to take the last shot solely on his GW FG%.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 9:15 pm
          • On the same token, it is already sufficient that I refute the evidence of Lebron’s ‘willingness’ to shoot the GW shot by challenging the notion that the rate at which he accumulates GW shot is the right metric. By highlighting that this metric ignores the rate at which GW opportunities happen to Lebron and Kobe, I have already dismiss the argument as a fallacy. I don’t need the actual answers to the questions to refute the claim.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 4, 2012, 10:33 pm
  114. @Paulie Walnuts,

    C’mon now, you should know better by now that he isn’t going to actually produce anything of substance. After all, he thinks that merely “challenging” the metric used in the article with long-winded post after post after post of the same repetitive unsupported suppositions and poorly reasoned assertions is enough to invalidate it. LOL!

    See, this is the downside of the stats revolution is sports. You have too many halfwits with a facile understanding of the issues bandying about terms and stats and blowing mountains of smoke trying to sound smarter than they are.

    Can you imagine being at a conference and having this guy get and issue such shallow “challenges” to something that is being presented? At best, he’d be told to come back with his own data. But, if he went on and on and on and kept rephrasing his same basic argument from “shots not taken” to “unwilling” to “game winning opportunities” in an attempt to bs the audience, they’d cut off his mic and laugh him out of the room.

    Posted by ks | March 5, 2012, 8:55 am
    • And, if you go look at 82games.com last analysis of NBA game winning shots, it includes all of the stuff that this dude has been going on about, except the stupid thing about shots not taken, like turnovers, assists and it even includes FTAs and FTMs but since it has Lebron at the top there must be something wrong with it. Heh.

      Posted by ks | March 5, 2012, 9:43 am
      • According to Synergy, Haslem on an assisted midrange jumper produces more points per possession than LBJ in isolation. And LBJ wasn’t in isolation against the Jazz. When you combine that with the fact that stars and role-players don’t differ much in GW shot scenarios, it begs the question: why must we demand that LBJ shoot the shot when he’s doubled, especially when he has four other teammates on the floor who are being paid lots of money to help him out?

        I don’t know what it will take for basketball fans to get caught up with the rest of the sports world when it comes to common sense, but myths such as “the GW shot is more important than any other shot”, “stars must always take the GW shot”, and “stars must always take the blame for the team loss” aren’t getting us anywhere.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 5, 2012, 12:01 pm
        • From crowning, exalting, and defending the ‘factual’ soundess of the article proclaiming Lebron as the KING of GW shot, conqueror of Kobe…to saying ‘Lebron’s no better than Udonis Haslem at the game-winning shot’….

          Yup, you’re believable…as a flip-flopper. Bravo!

          PS. The stat conf recently had a great presentation abt ‘clutch’ and broadly the 4th quarter. And to summarise, the game play in the 4th quarter and ‘clutch’ is significantly different from the rest of the game. There goes your ‘intelligence’ BS again. I wondee why you conspiously left out the comparison to baseball, instead saying ‘other sports’…hmmm. Such kind of people. Interesting,indeed.

          Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 1:10 pm
        • Again, Lebron had the line and momentum to the basket. Only one ailing player has the chance to get to him. His stat line was other-worldly at that point. Haslem only shot 4 hitting 2, with his 37% FG%. A pass the right play? Wow. You really are an ass-wipe. It wasn’t an iso. It was better! Bec if you look at the replays, his court position and movement show that Lebron already had the advantage over the defense…single coverage, on the move. Bad call by the referee before that? Why not do what he does best? Why not do a freight train play? Excuses, you never ran out of them

          Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 1:31 pm
        • Add a new set of glasses or contacts to Jourdan’s shopping list – in addition to reasoning skills, integrity, and a bar of soap for his dirty mouth.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | March 5, 2012, 2:41 pm
          • When the shit hits the fan, you really see through people. When they ran out of reasons, they’d play the ‘oh you’re…blah blah’ BS. Worse, they couldn’t come up with better insults. You want to improve your insulting skills? Try reading Voltaire’s works, or David Hume’s. Such poor creatures.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 4:35 pm
      • Didn’t I just posted this?

        Is it just me that had this problem with the conclusion that Lebron’s the right guy to win the game on the last shot just bec of his superior GW FG%? Or are there any other guys who had addressed the question in a more comprehensive manner?

        Yes, there are sane people in this world who, unlike you, aren’t predisposed to sticking with fallacies.

        Read these articles:
        Part 1: http://82games.com/clutchplayers.htm

        Part 2: http://82games.com/clutchplay2.htm

        Part 3: http://82games.com/clutchplay3.htm

        Now, that’s quantitative analysis!

        And btw, Kobe turned out not to be be the best “clutch” guy. I don’t give a shit at all that he’s not. All I am after are OBJECTVITIY and LOGIC.

        Those articles have them. You and this article? I’d repeat: Tell your stories to the Marines.

        POSTED BY JOURDAN | FEBRUARY 29, 2012, 4:52 PM

        Has this post led you to 82games? Tsk tsk tsk. Who didn’t believe in better metric again? Me?

        Pow! Another myth, another clown down!

        Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 1:00 pm
        • Isn’t the objetcitvity of this article present?

          My interpretation is that that article is a focused comparison with clearly and highly defined sets of criteria for two individula players.

          That is all it is.

          The author offers his conclusion and his opinions form the data.

          You stated several times that data is a small sample, but you still seem to wish to argue and argue futher from simply making the statement “the data sample is too small to draw any type of imperical conclusion”.

          Is there a reason for this; or is your accuser correct in the you have “last worditus”?

          Posted by Pauliew Walnuts | March 5, 2012, 4:25 pm
          • The writer flirted with objectivity, but failed to accomplish it by:
            - offering subjective excuses for Lebron’s reluctance to take the GW shot, which weakens the conclusion solely based on GW FG%.
            - ignoring circumstancial stats relevant to occurences of GW opportunities rendering the proof that Lebron is as willing or even more willing than Kobe to take the GW shot
            - committing a formal fallacy whereby the conclusion drawn was based on a conditional probability
            - committing an informal fallacy by way of cherry-picking GW FG% as the sole metric to derive the conclusion as to who should take the GW shot between Kobe and Lebron, as if the metric is the single relevant cause of a won game in that GW situation
            - committing a hasty conclusion that overwhelming excepts all other relevant factors in a GW situation such that the conclusion, as gravely qualified as it stands, fail to be relevant.

            I’ m just wondering why no one has offered counter-factual to support the assertion and thus destroy my refutation. All I hear from you are pointless, shabby ad hominems. Do you really think you can win arguments by labelling me as whatever you could imagine? Will that make the article objective beyond question? Beats the crap out of me.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 4:50 pm
          • Oh sorry, this should read
            “- ignoring circumstancial stats relevant to occurences of GW opportunities rendering the proof that Lebron is as willing or even more willing than Kobe to take the GW shot INVALID”

            And lastly, your sly accusation that all I was saying was that the sample size and therefore the conclusion is invalid GROSSLY MISREPRESENT my refutation. I actually only highlighted the small sample size (Lebron’s 12 playoff GW shots) when someone raised the counter-factual that Lebron hasn’t passed up on a playoff GW shot as evidence that he wouldn’t pass up on the 13th, or ever. That’s just abt what I said abt the small sample size. So please, stop the strawman. I see a pattern here with Lebron lovers and it’s not looking good.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 5:01 pm
          • Of course it is present. The article is pretty straightforward.

            But since the poor dude can’t rationally argue against it, he’s turned it into something it’s not. Note the continual claim by dude that the article is about “Lebron being the King of the GW shot or being “the” right guy to win the game on the last second shot…” when it’s clearly not. It is as you stated.

            Dude is engaging in a pretty transparent ruse and the repetitive and sophomoric way he’s going about it only makes it worse. I’m not sure if he’s just disingenuous or has some sort of attention deficit disorder.

            But, to be fair, his true objective is probably trying to drown the thread in nonsense. Eventually, people will tire of responding to the same bs over and over again. At that point, i guess he will declare “victory” and move on.

            Posted by ks | March 5, 2012, 5:12 pm
          • What I read is a lot of minutia disguised as a need to demonstarte a superior level of erudition.

            That may all well be, and indeed, much of, or all , you may wirte be true.

            It does beg the question, though, if you are so clearly superior to the rest of us “poor creatures”; why continue? Have you not already proven your vast superiority?

            I would like some evidence as to how anyone that disagrees with your psoitoin is a “LeBron Lover”

            How did you reach that conclusion?

            Are you committing a formal fallacy whereby the conclusion is based on a conditional probability (that the reader is a LBJ fan simply because he agrees with the author or likes the article)?

            Are you committing and informal fallacy by cherry picking written support of the articles’ conclusion as the sole metric to illicit one’s response; as if the single relevant cause was the favorable LBJ comparison to Kobe?

            Are you not committing a hasty conclusion that overwhelmingly exempts all other relevant factors that one can be supportive of a narrative or a conclusion without necessarily being a “Lebron lover”?

            I am just wondering why YOU, Jourdan, have not offered any counter factual evidence to support YOUR claims, thus destroying the credibility of the author and his work?

            Do YOU, Jourdan, really think that YOU will win arguments by labeling EVERYONE who disagrees with you as whatever you could imagine?

            Does that make YOU objective?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | March 5, 2012, 5:42 pm
          • “But, to be fair, his true objective is probably trying to drown the thread in nonsense. Eventually, people will tire of responding to the same bs over and over again. At that point, i guess he will declare “victory” and move on.”

            It’s the wonderful life of a sophist, KS. I suppose there’s nothing more satisfying than entering an intellectual discussion, arguing in circles until others finally become disgusted with your incongruous logic, and then smiling and puffing out your chest for being the “last man standing”. That kind of “patience” almost deserves a cold beer as a reward.

            Jourdan has a ways to go before he can finally claim that “Greatest Out-arguer Ever” belt, however. Rumor has it that the brick wall is still undefeated…

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 5, 2012, 7:45 pm
          • @ Paulie,
            1. “It does beg the question, though, if you are so clearly superior to the rest of us “poor creatures”; why continue? Have you not already proven your vast superiority?”

            Is this another attempt to lure me into “battle-of-personalities” argument instead of proper, logical argumentation? Firstly, I am not here to demonstrate “superior” level of erudition. I am here to have an intelligent discussion with level-headed, stats-enhanced basketball fans. Sadly, irrational, ad hominem throwing hippies (yup, that’s you NBA Realist #2) are clowning around, making it difficult to keep logic on track.

            Also, these “begging” BS are examples of rhetorical questions since I obviously haven’t asked those and obviously the answers that you seek are only to support your accusation that I would need validation of some sorts. So next time you accuse anyone of raising a rhetorical question, just remember how you frame these questions. They’re your examples of what not to do when you want to refute someone or something.

            2. “I would like some evidence as to how anyone that disagrees with your psoitoin is a “LeBron Lover”. How did you reach that conclusion?”

            Oh, is this the part where we now start moving away from my refutation of the writer’s argument and side-step yet again the discussion to irrelevance? Tsk tsk tsk.

            Hmm, I’ll indulge just to highlight a few points about logic.

            a. You commit a strawman when you contend that I label KS and NBA Realist #2 as “
            Lebron lovers” simply because they disagree with me. When did I ever say or even imply that? Putting words into my mouth, ey? Tsk tsk tsk.

            b. I came to that conclusion when:

            - NBA Realist #2 would do all in his power to exalt Lebron for being the “best guy…”, defend him from all his detractors to the point of unnecessary ad hominems, name-calling, and irrational tirades, and yet fault the “team” for his failures, excuse him by alluding to conventional basketball wisdom as if that’s totally beyond logical reproach, and then finally flip-flopping from supporting the writer’s conclusion to actually denouncing the whole article as nonsense since “clutch” has now become a myth after the recent Lebron no-shows.

            - KS would respond to side-issues with very little logic other than “is that in the title?”, commit argumentum ad nauseam to say that the writer was factual without actually saying or explaining why, and throw troll-like tantrums, insults, name-calling BS when challenged to provide counter-factual to the points that I raised. Oh, he also incredibly left the writer’s GW shot argument and went for 82games version of “clutch”…such a wuss! Ah, that’s not all. He also would educate me indirectly abt 82games when I was the one who actually pointed to those articles claiming that they were better measures over what has the writer had provided – that I used the said article to refute the writer’s GW conclusion! Quite predictably, he’s all too-willing to drop the writer’s argument subtly for 82games’ since the conclusion also positively points to Lebron as the most clutch…such flip-flopping is nothing but a sign of ass-wiping ways.

            3. Are you committing a formal fallacy whereby the conclusion is based on a conditional probability (that the reader is a LBJ fan simply because he agrees with the author or likes the article)?

            It’s funny that you would attempt to accuse me of that. Please study what a formal fallacy is and what a conditional probability is. Once you get it right, I’ll happily respond. This is just laughable.

            4. Are you committing and informal fallacy by cherry picking written support of the articles’ conclusion as the sole metric to illicit one’s response; as if the single relevant cause was the favorable LBJ comparison to Kobe?

            Nope, the observations were cross-referenced from other threads in this same website…the ass-kissing ways were fairly consistent across the board. Every time Lebron gets bashed, NBA Realist #2 would be there to defend him.

            In fact, that’s quite scary to me since it screams homo tendencies, but that’s just my take on it.

            5. I am just wondering why YOU, Jourdan, have not offered any counter factual evidence to support YOUR claims, thus destroying the credibility of the author and his work?

            Oh, now we go to “destroying credibility” accusations and burden of proof BS.

            Here’s the thing, in logical arguments, the one making the assertion should prove that

            a. The argument is formally logical

            b. The argument is logically sound

            The two things above beg of evidences, such as facts. The burden of proof always is with the one making the claim.

            To refute that claim, all the antagonist has to do is to

            a. To highlight that the argument commits a formal fallacy, which is structural in nature and hence the evidence is the refutation itself. In other words, I don’t need to understand the content of the argument itself since what I had highlighted was the flawed structure of the argument.

            b. The argument is a form of hasty generalisation and/or the conclusion is invalidated by flawed premises using test of reasonableness.

            I have done both. The refutations already serve as my counter-factual evidences. Besides, I am NOT ASSERTING the opposite, i.e., Lebron is NOT the best player to take the GW shot. My main point has always been that it is FICTIONAL to say that Lebron is the better player than Kobe to take the GW shot simply because he has a higher GW FG%”. I will repeat to you:

            MY POINT: It is a fallacy to say that Lebron is the better player than Kobe to take the GW shot simply because he has a higher GW FG%.

            NOT MY POINT: Lebron is NOT the best player to take the GW shot.
            If that’s not clear to you, then you really need to get your head examined.

            6. Do YOU, Jourdan, really think that YOU will win arguments by labeling EVERYONE who disagrees with you as whatever you could imagine?

            NO. Again, a strawman. And please, I wasn’t the one who started the name-calling thing in these boards. Tsk tsk tsk. Get your facts straight.

            7. Does that make YOU objective?

            Another worthless rhetorical question.

            Now, is there any logical counter-argument against the relevant point that you could raise? These are all smoke-screen.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 8:14 pm
          • Smokescreens or no, it is just your own language aimed back at you.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | March 5, 2012, 8:22 pm
          • Jourdan,

            I don’t disagree with your assertions or conclusions. I disagree with the manner in which you present it.

            Read your own posts and ask yourself, “Would anyone be compelled to engage me on the level I desire based upon me calling them names or left-handedly insulting their intelligence or choices?”

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | March 5, 2012, 8:26 pm
          • @ Paulie,
            Have you read my reply to the guy who disagreed with me regarding Lebon’s hesitation to shoot the ball? Was there any under-handed comment against him? Have I insulted his person? Clearly not. Was it Trailblazer? I forgot.

            And pls look around. I see very passionate Kobe supporters in this thread – Boyer, J, etc. They do commit fallacies here and there and show bias for their idol. But I still see them as more mature and level-headed than, say Anti Bill Simmons who’d lie abt numbers, or NBA Realist who’d readily insult anyone who bashes Lebron, or KS, samthoteg, even Nightbladehunter. In fact, these Lebron ass-wipes parade themselves as stat-informed, factual people when all I see are fallacies after fallacies screaming of their irrational devotion to Lebron. I get the devotion, not the pretense of rationality, and the false sense of ‘superiority’ thru their delusion that they have relied on nothing but stats. I just love kicking their asses off the high chair. I won’t get punked. Not by lightweights.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 5, 2012, 11:12 pm
  115. “It’s the wonderful life of a sophist, KS. I suppose there’s nothing more satisfying than entering an intellectual discussion, arguing in circles until others finally become disgusted with your incongruous logic, and then smiling and puffing out your chest for being the “last man standing”. That kind of “patience” almost deserves a cold beer as a reward.

    Jourdan has a ways to go before he can finally claim that “Greatest Out-arguer Ever” belt, however. Rumor has it that the brick wall is still undefeated…”

    @The Realist,

    Indeed. Well said. Dude is engaging in the kind of remedial tricks even a HS debate coach would laugh at like the pretentious intellectual posturing, the childish baiting, the inane use of jargon, the inability to stay on topic, the diversionary tropes, the endless word fogs and, of course, the pathological repetition of his dubious “arguments”.

    Again, to be fair, as I said earlier dude would be laughed out of any serious professional or academic forum if he engaged in such crap but here, he has succeeded in Troll 101 by shifting the discussion to his nonsense and making it about him. So I guess he’s due that beer. Maybe he can share it with the Brick Wall.

    Posted by ks | March 5, 2012, 9:10 pm
    • man ks, Let that foo just talk til hes bored ,hes like ann coulter only in nba debate form, Im not hating on jourdan , he probaly suffers an anti social disorder ,or maybe his life left him and he cant attract any more women , or he always got an F in plays wells with others growing up, the point is lets not be so harsh ,we don’t know why hes acting like an ass on the internet ,maybe its a sad story

      Posted by samtotheg | March 6, 2012, 10:31 am
      • I still remember his response to my post under the Lochspter article on Tyson Chandler in which he tossed around one his nasty homophobic slurs. Yet here is is, whining to the rest of the board about ad hominem attacks and how everyone else is calling him names. What a baby.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 6, 2012, 2:14 pm
  116. Ha! The sound of one hand clapping or, more accurately in this case, jerking. Dude is STILL talking about himself and “declaring victory”! Goodness…hahahaha….

    Posted by ks | March 6, 2012, 7:21 am
  117. Why is Lebron listed with 1 miss at the end of regulation for Game 4 against Orlando?

    Did you forget about OT? He also went 1-4 in the final 16 second of overtime that game……

    Clutch isn’t just about final shot…… it is easy to make an argument for anyone when you discredit some misses and not others.

    Posted by John Smith | March 6, 2012, 10:35 am
    • Um…what? That didn’t sound right – 1-4 in the final 16 SECONDS? seems improbable so I checked and you must be talking about some other game. In the OT of that game, Lebron was 3-6 with 2-2 on FTs.

      Also, the article is about GW shot attempts, not “clutchness” in general and if you are talking about FTs they are not included for either player (Kobe or Lebron) in the analysis.

      There must be something in the water when it comes to this article/post. I mean the article is pretty clear and, in the first few dozen replies the author responds to the objections that have been raised over and over again.

      Posted by ks | March 6, 2012, 12:07 pm
      • Check the final 16 seconds of the OT of Game 4. His shot got blocked by howard with 16 seconds, he gets the ball back off a jumpball and misses a three, then makes a three and then misses a three at the buzzer. He was 1-4

        http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=290526019&period=5

        Alas it does not match the criteria of this article (within three points, to tie or take the lead. The first two he missed they were down 4, the one he made they were still down 1 and the last one he missed is noted but should be written as “at the end of OT”.

        Posted by stillshining | March 6, 2012, 2:08 pm
  118. I’d like to point out a mistake on one of Kobes misses, in game 1 of the 2001 finals Kobe did NOT miss a shot. He actually turned the ball over with 18.9 seconds remaining in regulation.

    Here is the video:

    start the video at 1:48 to see the play

    Also here is basketball reference backing up that no field goal was attempted with the new play index shot finder: http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/plus/shot_finder.cgi?request=1&player_id=bryanko01&match=single&year_id=2001&is_playoffs=Y&team_id=&opp_id=PHI&game_num_min=0&game_num_max=99&game_month=&game_location=&game_result=&shot_pts=&is_make=&shot_type=&shot_distance_min=&shot_distance_max=&q4=Y&q5=Y&time_remain_minutes=0&time_remain_seconds=24&time_remain_comp=le&margin_min=&margin_max=&is_tying=Y&is_go_ahead=Y&c1stat=&c1comp=ge&c1val=&c2stat=&c2comp=ge&c2val=&c3stat=&c3comp=ge&c3val=&order_by=fg

    Posted by stillshining | March 6, 2012, 11:49 am
  119. I’m guessing we can’t embed youtube videos here so here is the link of the video.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8QwnJwrgCCY

    again start the video at 1:48 for the play

    Posted by stillshining | March 6, 2012, 11:51 am
  120. Kobe vs. the Pistons: hits shot in GW situation in 4th quarter, goes scoreless in OT, misses GW shot on a long, fadeaway 3-pointer that wasn’t even close to a make. Headline: “Pistons overcome Kobe’s heroics to top Lakers”.

    LBJ vs. the Jazz: scores 18 points in the 4th to bring the Heat back into the game, passes out of a double team in GW shot scenario to an open Haslem who is a good midrange shooter when open. Headline: “Jazz clips Heat after LeBron defers to Haslem”.

    Biased reporting, much? And please, no “we’re mad at LBJ because he didn’t take the shot” posts. Because we all know that if LBJ goes scoreless in the 4th/OT and misses a GW in a team loss, the media would spend every NBA segment telling us how “unclutch” he is and how he should defer to the “clutch” Wade instead…

    Posted by The Realist #2 | March 6, 2012, 8:53 pm
    • Lebron might have gotten the same headline had he decided to shoot.

      Last time I checked, people were on him bec he’s a no-show in winning time. Bird again alluded to that in latest interview together with Magic (http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=7651958). It’s purely your invention that people generally blame Lebron for missing clutch shots. Skip Bayless and co rips Lebron for not taking shots/delivering clutch plays and his toddler-like biting of fingernails when under pressure. And part and parcel of that derision is the fact that he has all the tools and skills to do exactly create shots when he needs to. So please, stop imagining that people would rip your idol for missing shots. He has to shoot the ball first, i.e., do the heroics before media could say ‘xxx team overcome his heroics”.

      Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 12:21 am
    • It’s funny how you said it’s biased reporting. They literally said what happened Kobe hit a buzzer beater “heroic shot”. Then they shut him down “They overcame”. The Jazz beat the Heat after what, LeBron deferred to Haslem oh yea that’s actually what happened. You also gotta think Espn wants people to read articles think of what’s more attention grabbing

      LeBron Defers or Haslem misses buzzer beater.

      Pistons Overcome Kobe’s Heroics or Pistons beat Lakers in Overtime

      It’s simple journalism, but everyone’s out to get LeBron I know.

      Posted by J | March 7, 2012, 3:21 am
      • J, you got the impression that the Pistons shut Kobe down from that headline? Please. They could’ve also said something like “Pistons hold Kobe scoreless in OT, beat Lakers” or “Jazz clip Heat despite LeBron’s hot 4th quarter”. Both factual and headline-grabbing.

        But the media needs to continue to fuel the myths that surround both players. After all, Kobe’s the “clutch” one and LBJ isn’t, right?

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 6:29 am
        • Myths according to whom? Stat guys that look at a piece of paper all day long?

          Even Wade said he’d want Kobe shooting that GW shot. Now, try to come up with an explanation for lebron’s beat teammate saying something like that.

          Posted by boyer | March 7, 2012, 6:48 am
          • “Myths according to whom? Stat guys that look at a piece of paper all day long?”

            You mean people who actually bother to use evidence?

            By the way, as an aside Boyer – whose fault was it that the Lakers lost a game to the sorry Pistons last night? Gasol? Bynum?

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 6:58 am
        • My bad I didn’t get the impression the Pistons shut down Kobe from the headlines I watched the game so I know what happened and I meant they shut him down in overtime, they played good d all game tho. And also it was Kobe’s bad shooting night combined with getting 13 points outside of Kobe, Gasol & Bynum for why the Lakers lost.

          Posted by J | March 7, 2012, 11:19 am
    • Yep. It’s not so much that the headlines aren’t true. It’s how they spin the events or put the emphasis on certain things to ontinue the established suspect narratives.

      Posted by ks | March 7, 2012, 7:17 am
      • They’ve always done that it’s not some conspiracy against LeBron, they try to make back stories to the season all the time. Like back when Kobe had Kwame and co. and every Laker loss headline was about how Kobe shot the Lakers outta the game. If a superstar has some kinda accusation about them like LeBron’s not being clutch or Kobe shooting too much and the player shows it in a game they will point it out. It’s always been like that it’s not new. This is the part that bothers me players have been treated unfairly by the media way worse than LeBron, but every LeBron fan thinks their just being too mean to him.

        Posted by J | March 7, 2012, 11:27 am
        • I’ll give you this J; at least you admit that the double-standard exists. Props for that. Really.

          Some people want to make it seem like the narrative has always been “LBJ doesn’t want to shoot the ball, he should shoot it more!” Funny, because those same people were clamoring for him to shoot it LESS in the past and let Wade close games and take the game winning shots instead. The mantra “let LBJ pile up the stats for three quarters and let ______ close the deal” was echoed throughout the sports world.

          And yes, I actually agree that Kobe hasn’t been immune to the flip-flopping logic either throughout his career.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 11:41 am
        • Yea, I don’t get it either. When Lebron doesn’t get any MVP votes(like Kobe did in 05), or I see even one article about Lebron shooting his team out of the game, even though Lebron has averaged more FGAs/game than Kobe over their career, or even one article about why the heat should run their offense through Bosh, which many articles about why the lakers should run their offense through bynum or pau appear all the time.

          If we analyze Bosh’s career before the Heat and Pau’s career before the Lakers, it’s easy to see that Bosh was a much better and more decorated player than Gasol was before they joined their current teams.

          A lot of selective memory around here.

          Posted by boyer | March 7, 2012, 11:42 am
          • Well, for one, LBJ averages less shot attempts per minute over his career. For another, he’s shot it at a higher %. I agree that the “Kobe shoots it too much” is a sometimes a bit overblown, but where is the comparison to LBJ coming from?

            And Bosh was certainly decorated than Gasol before joining the Heat. But “much better”? That’s debatable.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 11:55 am
          • Bosh was definitely considered better than Gasol before they changed teams. He put up better stats and was considered a superstar, while Gasol was considered a borderline All-star. Bosh went to the Heat and his points and rebounds dropped. Gasol went to the Lakers and his points dropped by 2 and his rebounding went up. Gasol is one of those players that Kobe made better, even though Kobe never does that though. Maybe a myth that needs to be checked out.

            Posted by J | March 7, 2012, 12:14 pm
          • “He put up better stats and was considered a superstar, while Gasol was considered a borderline All-star.”

            That “borderline all-star” was only slightly behind Bosh offensively and was a better defender (although they were weren’t exactly known for their defense). In the playoffs, Gasol was actually better than Bosh on O – and that’s with as many playoff minutes played before they joined their new teams. The gap isn’t as wide as you think it is.

            I don’t like using the term “_____ made players better” anyway for any player. Bu if you mean by making Gasol better that Kobe took some of the playmaking load off of him, I don’t think anyone is denying that. Gasol still had to take advantage of it though, and unlike Bosh he’s been a more consistent force.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 12:32 pm
          • My main pt. is that whatever way you look at it, kobe and lebron have nearly the same amount of shots over their careers per game, per minute, per year, whatever you want to use. And that you could literally start up a college course on kobe’s shot analysis with all the articles and biases I’ve seen, and that I’ve never even once heard or read anything to the extent of lebron actually shooting too much and that this ‘overshooting’ is detrimental to his team, not even pre 09 cavs, which those cavs teams were somewhat similar to kobe’s 05-07 lakers’ teams, but kobe was continually getting bashed for shooting too much then and still is today.

            Gasol’s FG pct. mainly and also off. reb. skyrocketed immediately once joining the lakers, which the same can be said for odom, at least for FG pct. when he joined the lakers in 05 after playing with another supposed superstar in wade in 04, and now odom is completely lost in dallas.

            Bosh’s FG pct. has gone down since joining the heat. Naturally, you’d expect the big 3 on the heat to have a little lower ppg now, but you’d expect them to have higher FG pct. as well, especially bosh, and that’s not happening with bosh.

            The comparison to lebron is that it should be rather easy to see that kobe is treated much more unfairly by the media than lebron could ever imagine, and still is, by the examples I first listed. Which, if you’re a lebron fan, sure, any notion of unconditional love by the media might upset you, given that he’s been loved by almost everyone in the media for most of his career. And now that maybe some of the media are waking up and able to see beyond the stat stuffing, that hmm, he’s had excellent chances to win 3 years in a row, but still hasn’t.

            Posted by boyer | March 7, 2012, 12:34 pm
          • I already stated that LBJ shoots it at a higher % than Kobe, so he’s not seen as a “shot-chucker” as much. You also talked about Bosh/Gasol before they joined their new teams, which is what I was addressing. Don’t know why you decided to then decided to talk about them on their new teams.

            Also, the media still treats Kobe unfairly? He’s got “FIVE RINGZZZ”! More than anyone in his generation – and since the media likes to assign the entire credit of a championship to one individual, he’s been getting plenty of love. It’s why his heavily-favored, defending champion team can get embarrassingly swept by the same team that the Heat – oops, sorry, LBJ – is not allowed to lose against, and no one says a word about Kobe. So let’s not whine about “unfair” treatment.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 1:03 pm
          • You asked why compare kobe to lebron as far as media love/hate goes, so that’s what I did, so don’t go off on your own tangent. Sure, lebron shoots a higher pct., that’s fine. What I’m saying is that rarely does a day go by that at least one person doesn’t bash kobe for shooting too much, while I’ve never heard anyone suggest ever that lebron shoots too much. Lebron currently has a 48% to 45% edge, so it’s not like he’s astronomically shooting that much better than Kobe has via FG pct.

            The only times I hear the media assigning credit for a title to one individual is when they talk about jordan or try to denigrate kobe, suggesting that shaq was the only one who won those titles from 00-02.

            You really do have a selective memory or just woke up last year from a long sleep. Well, if you think lebron is being treated unfairly and kobe isn’t, then go right ahead and keep believing that myth.

            Posted by boyer | March 7, 2012, 1:29 pm
          • Not sure what “tangent” you’re talking about, but moving along…

            I’ll actually somewhat concede your point Boyer. Yes, both these players shoot alot. If you want to express you grievance with those who act like LBJ doesn’t also shoot the ball alot, I don’t object to that.

            But your original post did suggest that there’s a lack of talk about “LBJ shooting his team out of games”, and the fact is that he doesn’t do that often. In reg. season games since 2004 where a player shoots 30 or more times and his team loses, Kobe’s on the list 40 times – over three times as many times as LBJ. And that’s with playing about 20 less games than LBJ since ’04. See where that’s coming from now?

            Also, you’re simply wrong about Kobe being “unfairly treated”. The media sees him as a “5-time champion”, and the traditional basketball heads are always enamored by ring count.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 3:17 pm
  121. Just for kicks, I decided to read Jourdan’s comment. What does our Chasing 23 “savant” have to say today?

    “It’s purely your invention that people generally blame Lebron for missing clutch shots.”

    Haha, I needed a good laugh. Thanks for that!

    Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 7:50 am
    • Yup. It’s the Lebron no-show. The Frozen One. I hardly saw anyone say Lebron is not clutch bec he’s the least efficieny scorer in crunch time. Skip Bayless and co, as I said, have highlighted Lebron’s reluctance to shoot, his lackadaisical approach in winnin time, and his discombulating propensity to pile up stats in the first 3 or so quarters – forcing and making acrobatic shots, and then mysteriously transforming into the passive ‘right-play-kinda-guy’ in crunch time. That’s the allegation, which somehow escapes you as you give your ‘what ifs’ that Lebron would have been blamed anyway for missing clutch shots.

      Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 1:18 pm
      • “I hardly saw anyone say Lebron is not clutch bec he’s the least efficieny scorer in crunch time.”

        You got a TV where you live?

        Or do you just love to lie? Which is it? Because the dishonesty is pathetic now.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 2:20 pm
        • And I’m going to safely assume that you’ve been watching basketball BEFORE the narrative shifted to “LBJ doesn’t want to shoot”. Because anyone who has been following the Heat all of last season could tell you about the many times the media scrutinized LBJ’s misses in close games – and the consequent firestorm of whether he should even be shooting the “clutch shot” in the first place.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 2:28 pm
          • The “unwilling” narrative is really bizzare. If you look at the 82 games.com analysis of NBA game winning shots which covered the 03 through 09 reg. and post seasons, Lebron had 50! GW Fgas. The only two players with more were Vince Carter with 51 and Kobe with 56. I suspect that if you updated the data Lebron would pass Vince and only trail Kobe in GW Fgas but yet Skip Bayless Nation is still talking foolishness.

            Posted by ks | March 7, 2012, 3:18 pm
          • Hey KS, did you see Wade defer to Bosh and UDONIS HASLEM against the Hawks down the stretch?

            The nerve! He’s afraid to shoot it in the clutch!

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 7, 2012, 7:05 pm
          • I guess you’re twisting things. The complaints have always been around his no-show during crunch time and his passive, lackadaisical game play…it’s almost like watching 2 different players with Lebron – the smiling, confident, powder-tossing, biceps-flexing, free-wheeling freight train on the first 3 quarters or so, and then the nail-biting, tentative, often passive Lebron with a worried-look and a body language thst screams lack of self-doubt in winning time. I am among those Heat fans who would want Lebron to just defer and let Dwayne be the alpha dog in crunch time, even when I know full well that Lebron is the better guy overall. It’s just that I believe Lebron’s hurting the team more by not establishing whether or not he’s going to be the alpha dog. I guess he could be a very good decoy, and a super no. 2 guy during crunch time. He’s Pippen 2.0, only bigger and definitely a better passer. He could probably play loose as Dwayne’s wingman in the closing minutes. Maybe that’ll take off the pressure and probably he’d be more effective at doing what he does best, which is create plays for others and then just scoring here-and-there.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 10:14 pm
    • Larry Bird has this to say abt Lebron, which fairly sums up what people generally say abt him

      “People are on him about no rings, but these championships don’t come to your house and knock on the door. Anything can happen. Dallas got some lucky breaks or Miami woulda beat them. LeBron passes the ball and takes some crap for it … I don’t know what’s going on with (him in) the fourth quarter. Some guys get shaky at the end of a game. I never felt that. I had it before a game, yeah.”

      There you go. Is there anything there abt the misses? No one makes a big fuss out of Lebron’s misses bec there have been few of them…bec he wouldn’t take them clutch shots haha.

      Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 1:33 pm
      • “Larry Bird has this to say abt Lebron, which fairly sums up what people generally say abt him.”

        Do I see an argument ad populum and an appeal to authority in the same sentence? Two fallacies in one argument from the guy who’s so quick to jump on others for anything that could even be construed as a fallacy? You can hardly be taken seriously when your argument so blatantly fails to meet your own standards.

        “There you go. No one makes a big fuss out of Lebron’s misses bec there have been few of them…bec he wouldn’t take them clutch shots haha.”

        For someone who presents himself an arbiter of statistical truth, this is a massive fail. Since 2000, Lebron’s 4th in the NBA in FGA in the final 5 minutes with the game within 5 points (and remember, James was a rookie in 2003). Since 2006, Lebron is second in “clutch” shot attempts in the final minute and 3rd in attempts in the final 24 seconds. During that same time period, he has exactly 2 fewer “clutch” shots than Kobe during the final 24 seconds and 3 fewer during the final minute. Your assertion that he doesn’t take clutch shots brazenly ignores statistical evidence and is completely based on the aforementioned logical fallacies which you so despise.

        http://bbs.hoopchina.com/3321813.html

        Whether you were willfully ignorant of the facts or willfully chose to distort them is irrelevant. Given your in-depth knowledge of advanced statistics, it was easily within your power to find out whether your claims had any basis in reality. Instead, you chose spin and lies.

        Posted by Lochpster | March 7, 2012, 9:35 pm
        • Hey, I am responding to NBA realist’s post saying that people would fault Lebron anyway for missing a clutch shot (if he takes it). I merely highlighted that it was a gross misrepresentation of Skip Bayless et al’s position, which is that Lebron’s a no-show…that’s the Frozen One. I wasn’t trying to make a formal case that Lebron is the worst guy to trust in clutch. I was only saying that Lebron lovers love to create ‘what if’ excuses to the extent of misrepresenting people’s opinions. Tell me when did Skip Bayless or Larry Bird or Jordan ever said that Lebron is no clutch because he can’t make them shots? Nah, Bird implied Lebron’s somewhat shaky in crunch time, which is the same message that Skip had been parading, right or wrong – Lebron gets spooked during crunch time.

          Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 10:23 pm
        • But yeah, for all its worth, I see stats that convey Lebron is this and that…king of PER, leader of whatever advanced stats there is. And frankly, I see him as the probably one of the best players ever. But there goes the problem with that – he’s too good and has done great things to fall short of winning a title with his superfriends. So to me, that says a lot abt how rudimentary are the advanced stats now. We still don’t have a full grasp of all the basketball nuances to the point that we could explain why such an impressive talent, playing with a bunch of super-talents could still fail. Simply put, the model is lacking. There is helluva large unquantified factor that lurks beneath the obvious numbers.

          So there, I am not discounting numbers. There not lies at all. But although they could explain lots of things, I know they don’t tell the full tale. They’re practically good for telling order-of-magnitude differences and comparisons…but simply not enough to describe absolutes. I could safely say Lebron’s more ‘clutch’ than Smush Parker, but I wouldn’t dare conclude he’s the best ever, just bec numbers say so.

          Posted by Jourdan | March 7, 2012, 10:37 pm
        • Boom! That’s pretty much ownage right there. Lochpster just murdered our resident gadfly and turned him into a sputtering sideshow.

          Posted by ks | March 8, 2012, 10:55 pm
          • Ah how? By failing to follow the discussion and decipher that I wasn’t making a case for or against Lebron but rather just reacting to NBA Realist #2′s obvious crush on Lebron to the point that he’d twist what people are saying abt his boy-toy? No wonder he stops responding…he must have realisef that in his haste to get back at me, he failed to actually follow the conversation.

            But as expected, u’d join in. This is all what ur head could understand anyway – worthless side issues haha. And of course, once an ass-kisser, always an ass-kisser. U’d kiss Lochpster’s ass anytime out of obvious deference to ‘authority’ like the writer of this article is right just bec he’s right. Scaredy cat I see haha. A wuss.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 9, 2012, 7:22 am
      • For me, these are my favorite Jourdan quotes from this thread:

        “I am among those Heat fans who would want Lebron to just defer and let Dwayne be the alpha dog in crunch time, even when I know full well that Lebron is the better guy overall.”

        “Skip Bayless and co, as I said, have highlighted Lebron’s reluctance to shoot, his lackadaisical approach in winnin time, and his discombulating propensity to pile up stats in the first 3 or so quarters – forcing and making acrobatic shots, and then mysteriously transforming into the passive ‘right-play-kinda-guy’ in crunch time.”

        I must’ve missed something here, because last time I checked there’s only one basketball in play, and you can’t both defer and shoot the ball at the same time. It shouldn’t be a mystery that asking a player to defer naturally means that he has to stop shooting and into the “right-play-kinda-guy”, but of course this is hardly the first time Jourdan makes an absolute fool of himself.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 6:37 am
        • Wow…seems your favorite quotes have been piling up! Do you have any imagination at all? Creativity? Ur thought pattern is very similar to a 5-yr old:

          1. Lame seguey (“this is my fave xxx quote”, ” i just can’t help but…”, “just for the kicks…”)
          2. Nitpicking quote
          3. Smart-ass reaction (basically crap made up of fallacies)
          4. Lame parting shot

          My nephew’s better at constructing his thoughts than u. What’s ur IQ? 50? Hahaha

          Posted by Jourdan | March 9, 2012, 7:28 am
          • “When the shit hits the fan, you really see through people. When they ran out of reasons, they’d play the ‘oh you’re…blah blah’ BS. Worse, they couldn’t come up with better insults. You want to improve your insulting skills? Try reading Voltaire’s works, or David Hume’s. Such poor creatures.”

            ~Jourdan

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 7:40 am
          • And your point being? Hahahaha

            Again, read David Hume’s works coz ur too lame.

            Ok, let me clear this up for u.

            1. I categorically want Wade to take the last shot despite that Lebron’s the better player overall.

            2. I want Lebron to take the last shot if he won’t defer to Wade anyway.

            Wade couldn’t take the last shot if Lebron has the ball…only to give it up and pass it to Haslem. That’s a total waste of moneyball. Now, if Lebron wants to be the top dog, then be one. Take the f—ing rock to the hole like a caveman with all his 6’9″, 285lbs brute strength and not wuss himself out by deferring to a lower lifeform. If he couldn’t handle the pressure, then f—ing give the ball to Wade coz that guy ain’t afraid to take them shots.

            Clear? Wow, that should have been easy. More and more you give me proofs that u lack conprehension even of rudimentary, internet colloquial english. What’s ur SAT score? Get a degree. That should help. If u have one already, then take some post-grad. U need it.

            Posted by Jourdan | March 9, 2012, 8:13 am
        • Wow, more goalpost-shifting, Jourdan? You weren’t even specifically talking about THE LAST SHOT at all in those quotes. Or anywhere else in your exchanges with me/KS/Lochpster in this particular discussion.

          Funny how you decide to then change the parameters and talk about THE LAST SHOT instead, AFTER I point out your obvious flip-flopping logic in the above post. How grossly dishonest.

          Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 9:22 am
          • Also, as an aside – that “lower lifeform” that you’re disparaging was incredibly clutch against the Hawks. I’m glad Wade right back to him when needed and used his teammates to win, instead of listening to the likes of you and turning basketball into a one-on-five sport.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 10:26 am
  122. This is why you can’t believe everything you read on the internet. Kobe hit 6 game winners in 2009-2010 and they are not listed:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYUe0AjNsAs

    Posted by Allan | March 7, 2012, 11:28 am
    • I know what your trying at, but this article is playoff game winners. If it went by total game winners Kobe, well I just can’t seem to find Kobe’s career game winning shot percentage anywhere, weird, I can find his percentage since 2003 though. He has 36 game winners just don’t know how many misses yet.

      Posted by J | March 7, 2012, 12:01 pm
  123. lets add another game where kobe shoots over 30 shots and has a shit percentage and they lose …to the lameass wizards WOW!!!!!!!

    Posted by samtotheg | March 7, 2012, 6:26 pm
  124. “Hey, I am responding to NBA realist’s post saying that people would fault Lebron anyway for missing a clutch shot (if he takes it).”

    And I am saying that you are absolutely wrong. Many times during the 2011 season, the topic of discussion was whether or not Spoelstra should take the ball out of LBJ’s hands down the stretch and let SOMEONE ELSE (Wade) shoot the clutch shot, because the media would highlight all of the misses. This was even true after Game 2 of the Finals.

    But nevermind this. I see that now you’re retreating behind the tired “stats don’t matter/stats don’t tell the whole story/I don’t like evidence that contradicts my position” mantra. How convenient. The ironic thing is that for this particular argument, I wasn’t even going by ANY of the numbers whatsoever when I made my post – just from what I’ve seen from watching virtually every Heat game and post-game reaction since the Big 3 teamed up in Miami. Thanks to Lochspter to putting those numbers up.

    You don’t listen to people who use numbers, and you don’t listen to people who just “watch the games”. So what’s the point? Since you’d rather stick your fingers in your ear and yell out “Nyah, nyah, nyah can’t hear you!” whenever someone shows you’re wrong, then you’re a waste of my (and everyone else’s) time.

    Posted by The Realist #2 | March 8, 2012, 6:18 am
    • Blah blah blah. It’s pretty simple. Skip Bayless, Bird, Barkley, etc was complaining abt the Lebron No Show. How you spin that into an argument abt Lebron missing shots is your magical take on it. Lebron got busted for passing to Donyell. Lebron got accused of quitting during playoffs againts the Celtics and against the Magic. Lebron got abused for his ‘shaky’ 4th quarters of the Finals last yr. That’s the storyline from the beginning and until the time Lebron figures out that he’s physically gifted and immensely talented to care abt ‘right plays’ during clutch. Meanwhile, you could continue conjuring up ‘what if’ excuses for him. Pity that you don’t earn a thing from it ‘coz you really are one of the best suckers that I have seen in ages.

      Posted by Jourdan | March 8, 2012, 10:50 pm
      • Why are you talking about LBJ with the Cavs? Shifting the goalposts again? I’m talking about LBJ with the Heat, the same guy who would be the main option down the stretch of games in 2011 along with Wade and also attempted a bunch of GW shots. No one was talking about Donyell or “he doesn’t want to shoot the ball” when LBJ missed shots in the clutch and GWs (probably the only time that happened was when LBJ assisted Eddie House on a GW 3 in the season, which he made). The media instead called for Spoelstra to take the ball away from the LBJ and make Wade the Heat closer – after all, according to the media, Wade “knows” to make those shots in crunch time, see the 2006 Finals. It was only after the Finals that the narrative changed to “LBJ doesn’t want to shoot”.

        I don’t have to “spin” anything, this all actually happened. But, once again, since people who watch the games AND the objective numbers don’t do it for you, I’ll leave you to your own delusions and intellectual dishonesty. Enjoy.

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 7:24 am
        • Stupid ass hahaha. My main argument was that u offer BS ‘what if’ excuses basically saying that people will just as call Lebron not clutch for missing shots…to which I said that people generally haven’t been faulting Lebron for not taking the GW shot but rather that he doesn’t take it – that he’s a no-show, the Frozen One.

          It was you who offered the Miami Heat BS saying that the media last yr was on Lebron for missing shots in clutch. I responded that from the very early days to now, from Donyell Marshall pass till his latest pass to Udonis, people are on Lebron bec he’s a no-show. It seems that you selected only the media articles that sacked Lebron for missing shots while incredibly ignoring the large number of people who has maintained that Lebron’s a no-show in crunch time. The headline-grabbing, bandwagon knock on Lebron has not changed then till now – Lebron’s reluctant to shoot the ball. That’s what Skip was and is saying. That’s what the Kobe Nation is saying. That was what Barkley alluded to. And Jordan. And Bird. It is so pervasive that even the writer of this article had to specifically address.

          You’re nothing but a spinster. Lebron missing GW shots aren’t his detractor’s main course. That’s probably lyk the chinese fortune cookie. It’s there but no one make a fuss out of it…not unless u’r you who’d find ways to create what if BS abt people ganging on Lebron in case he miss.

          Oh, in case I forgot. There’s an article abt Lebron and his no-show: http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/story?storyId=7660741

          I told you. You should tweet Lebron and ask for money. You’re a good loyal sucker. Maybe he could send u a picture of him taking the last shot. Hahaha

          Posted by Jourdan | March 9, 2012, 7:51 am
          • Oh that should have read people generally not faulting Lebron for missing shots but rather fault him for not taking them…oh what the heck, hehe. This is getting old anyway so i’d stop this nonsesnsical tangent here…

            Moving on….

            Posted by Jourdan | March 9, 2012, 8:21 am
          • “The headline-grabbing, bandwagon knock on Lebron has not changed then till now – Lebron’s reluctant to shoot the ball. ”

            So you’re saying that this has been the narrative all along, even as LBJ was among the league leaders in shots taken in close games in 2011? I don’t think everyone else is as oblivious as you are.

            But yes, carry on.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 11:55 am
  125. How hard is it to see that when discussing who is better individually we use individual accomplishments like mvps and stats not team accomplishments like championships. You would think that would be obvious. It’s just like peyton and Brady. Peyton is the better player just not on as good of a team, It’s so easy to see. Everyone knows Marino is better than Doug Williams. And Ewing is better than billups

    Posted by Jbo | March 8, 2012, 6:26 pm
  126. Everyone knows for a fact that Kobe would have never took the cave to the finals and that lebron would have 7 championships already if he had been drafted by the lakers because shaq wouldn’t have left and they would have been ridiculous

    Posted by Jbo | March 8, 2012, 6:36 pm
  127. What kind of world do we live in where you can score more points on less shots get twice as many assists and rebounds more steals and blocks and more mvps (about to be 3 to 1) and not be as good as another player because they have more team accomplishments because they play with the lakers instead of the lowly cavaliers had Phil instead of mike brown shaq instead of zydrunas horry instead of varejeo It’s insane You can like Kobe better but you can’t truthfully think he’s better than lebron

    Posted by Jbo | March 8, 2012, 6:46 pm
  128. for the people that say Miami can’t do it in the halfcourt…the stats seem to say otherwise… and I quote…

    “In fact, four out of every five Heat plays on offense don’t occur in transition, according to Synergy video tracking. (Synergy tracks every possession in the NBA and places each offensive play into two groups: transition and halfcourt.) The Heat, like all teams, only spend a handful of plays in transition per game and mostly engage in halfcourt warfare.

    So what happens in the halfcourt?

    More dominance.

    Here’s where the narrative separates from reality. When you look at how the Heat get their points, you’ll find that they get the majority of their points, not from racing up and down the floor in high-velocity brilliance, but from pounding teams when the game slows down in the halfcourt.”

    From the Heat Index on ESPN

    Posted by nightbladehunter | March 9, 2012, 5:53 am
    • Of course they get the majority of their pts. in the halfcourt, every team does. But, that’s like saying they scored 51 points out of 100, so it doesn’t necessarily tell us how good or how bad they are in the halfcourt.

      I’d like to see the stats of how many ppg they score in the fastbreak compared to their halfcourt offense. I don’t know where to find this, does anyone know?

      Posted by boyer | March 9, 2012, 6:49 am
      • Seeing how they’re the best overall offense in the league and Synergy shows that most of their points don’t come from transition but from the halfcourt, I’d think you’d have to conclude they’re a pretty good halfcourt team…

        Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 7:28 am
        • Every team has most of their pts. come from the halfcourt, does that make every team a good offensive team?

          I’m not saying they’re a good or bad halfcourt team, I was just asking for some stats or where to find them, since I don’t know where to find halfcourt/fastbreak stats, other than synergy, which isn’t free.

          Posted by boyer | March 9, 2012, 8:09 am
      • What? That’s not “like saying saying they scored 51 points out of 100…” at all. If 4 out of 5 of their offensive plays occur in the halfcourt, it would be, to put it mildly, very unlikey that they would get 51% of their points from 20% of their other (transition) plays.

        Posted by ks | March 9, 2012, 2:33 pm
        • All I’m saying is that while nightbladehunter and realist #2 are saying that the heat get most of their pts. in the halfcourt, the same exact thing applies to every team. So, by saying that, what’s the pt.? It’s just redundant. We could say that every team in the league scores more pts. in the halfcourt than transition, but that doesn’t make every team in the league a dominant halfcourt offensive team, which both of them arrived at the conclusion somehow.

          I wanted to actually see some of the stats on this matter. I’ve looked around, and can’t find anything anywhere on transition vs. halfcourt pts./efficiency. Just wanted to see the data for each team on this or where to find it.

          Posted by boyer | March 9, 2012, 2:44 pm
          • Ok, but what they are knocking down is the media narrative that the Heat get the majority of their points in transition and were not a good halfcourt team. I though that was clear, no?

            Posted by ks | March 9, 2012, 2:49 pm
        • Or, the other way, just 51% of their points on 80% of their possessions.

          Posted by ks | March 9, 2012, 2:47 pm
          • I wasn’t arguing one way or the other. Just pointing out their conclusions of the heat being a great offensive halfcourt team are meaningless based only on the fact that they score more pts. in the halfcourt than in transition, because that’s the case every single team.

            I want see points/possession in the halfcourt vs. transition or some type of stat similar to this, or the heat’s halfcourt efficiency compared to the rest of the league, rather than just saying the heat spend more time in the halfcourt than transition, which we don’t need syngergy or anything else to tell us this as it’s already a given.

            Posted by boyer | March 9, 2012, 4:41 pm
          • I don’t think it was a “given”, at least to some people. The perception is that the Heat is mainly a transition team and that they get alot of their points on the break.

            You’re right that it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re a *good* halfcourt team, but if they’re the #1 offense in the league in pts/poss and they’re largely a halfcourt team, they’re probably also among the league’s best in that category.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | March 9, 2012, 9:00 pm
  129. http://bbs.hoopchina.com/3321813.html

    It doesn’t prove much else than what’s in this article but it’s a more in depth look at clutch shooting. Kinda from all angles thing.

    Posted by J | March 9, 2012, 3:33 pm
  130. Not sure if this helps but I’ve found a chart comparing the usage of the halfcourt offense and the efficiency. The Heat are the most efficient team in the league in their halfcourt offense but they use it less than every team but the Kings, Wizards and Nuggets.

    http://public.tableausoftware.com/shared/HPZB5KQ3S?:display_count=yes

    Posted by stillshining | March 9, 2012, 9:08 pm
    • Thanks for the stat. Lebron lovers missing the point again. As usual.

      Posted by Jourdan | March 10, 2012, 1:31 am
    • Thanks for the link Stillshining.

      Jourdan, what does this info even have to do with “LeBron lovers” or LeBron James? Surely an “intellectual” such as yourself knows better than to engage in such “unnecessary ad hominems” and “name-calling”…

      Posted by The Realist #2 | March 10, 2012, 6:51 am
  131. Will james finally consistently stop shying away from the big moments this year?

    http://20secondtimeout.blogspot.com/2012/04/difference-between-kobe-bryant-and.html#links

    Posted by boyer | April 3, 2012, 10:54 am
    • Only the most irrational of fans would use a 3-21 shooting night as evidence of his hero’s greatness.

      In routine Kobe fashion, the Laker superstar kept jacking up shots despite being unable to hit the broad side of a barn, and the team almost lost to the Hornets, who were not only the worst team in the conference, but they were also down to 8 players and 2 of their starting 5 due to injuries. Lucky for the Lakers, both Gasol and Bynum had such dominant nights they were able to offset the putridity of Kobe Bryant’s performance.

      It’s great for the Lakers that Kobe was able to hit a low percentage shot at the buzzer, but it’s Kobe’s fault that it even came down to that situation.

      Posted by Lochpster | April 3, 2012, 11:18 am
      • It really is remarkable isn’t it? I’m not sure there’s a rational explanation for it. The last two games the Lakers almost lose to two terrible teams at home, appear to have some sort of internal dissension (especially with Bynum), and are clearly a step or two below the tops teams but all you hear is Kobe! KB24! MVP!!! Woo hoo!!!

        Posted by ks | April 3, 2012, 10:26 pm
    • Idk Lebron didn’t shoot 3 for 21 last night when his team needed him with Wade out. He kicked butt in the 4th Q but the media and Lebron haters like to pretend games like that never happen.

      Posted by nightbladehunter | April 4, 2012, 7:48 am
    • Friedman is FAR from an objective writer. It’s laughable to read his blog entries that downplay Gasol’s contributions and praises a player that goes 3-21 against a bad team that doesn’t have even its full roster. If the Lakers wanted a player who could just make “key” baskets, why not just keep Derek Fisher and trade Kobe away?

      They play basketball over a 48-minute period, and the points all count the same. If Gasol didn’t give play a great game to counterbalance Kobe’s historically bad night, the Lakers get blown out at home against the mighty Hornets.

      Posted by The Realist #2 | April 4, 2012, 8:25 am
    • I would like to express my disappointment in Wade tonight. In a nationally televised game against the top team in the West, he takes ZERO SHOTS in the last eight minutes of a close game down to the wire and deferred to the inferior LeBron and Bosh in “winning time”. The only time he scored was on an intentional foul when his team was already ahead by a possession late in the 4th. He shied away from the big moments and became the frozen one in the clutch when his team needed him. Come on, ZERO shots?! He afraid to shoot the ball. He’s afraid of failure.

      MJ would NEVER defer to other players like that. Shame on you, Wade.

      Posted by The Realist #2 | April 4, 2012, 9:00 pm
      • i dont come to this site often but i loved this post sitting at my work desk i laughed out loud dont forget the back to back turnovers Lebron i mean wade had to make the game tight in the 4th but all jokes aside Dwade is still a top 5 player who had a bad night but he will never get crushed like Bron because he has a ring

        Posted by Boonstar | April 5, 2012, 9:55 am
      • Did you see all those layups Lebron took? Embarrassing. Anybody can consistently get good looks at the rim. A real winner would have found a way to try to win the game with some hard shots.

        Posted by Lochpster | April 5, 2012, 10:32 am
        • Come on Loch, you’re missing the point as usual. LeBron sucks anyway, he’s always been overrated. Said it since day one. No one cares about him.

          WADE, on the other hand, is easily the most talented player I’ve seen since Jordan. And he’s a choker. His team didn’t win in college. Tim Donaghy and the refs helped him to a championship in 2006 when his team was about to be swept by the Mavs, so that obviously doesn’t count. First-round exits every year, and Wade even missed the playoffs before he whined to his buddies LeBron and Bosh to join him in South Beach. MJ would NEVER ask other great players to join him on the same team, he would want to beat them! Wade is a coward. Afraid to lead his team to a title by himself like all the other true greats do. And Wade’s a stat-piler too, just look at the Finals last year. Wade piled up stats every game and sure, he looked great in the box score but he didn’t hit THE shots to win when it counted (CHOKED in game 2, CHOKED in game 4 at the free-throw line). No one cares about stats if you don’t win. Choker.

          Then last night, with the entire country watching him against the best team in the league and the MVP Kevin Durant, he takes ZERO SHOTS (again, ZERO SHOTS) after the eight-minute mark in the 4th quarter. He didn’t want to close and be THE MAN. Didn’t want to guard Durant. Ran away from the ball and let the beta-players LeBron and Bosh take shots. Did you see the look on Wade’s face? I dunno but I could see that fear in him. Fear of being the closer. Fear of failure. LOOK AT HIS FACE, Loch. MJ and Kobe would NEVER let anyone else shoot it with the game on the line, they want to WIN. Instead, Wade stood off in a corner every play and idly WATCHED as his teammates won the game when it counted. Oh sure, he hits a couple free-throws on an INTENTIONAL foul when the Heat were already UP by one possession. What a front-runner. 

          What a choker. The true great players EMBRACE the moment, not shrink from it. 

          Posted by The Realist #2 | April 5, 2012, 11:07 am
          • LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

            Posted by Mike | April 5, 2012, 11:25 am
          • Realist you are on fire! You too Loch.

            Posted by ks | April 5, 2012, 3:01 pm
          • You’re right. That’s why Tim Duncan’s the best. Could you imagine him deferring to Manu Ginobli or Tony Parker with the game on the line? No way! That’s why he has 4 rings. Whether hey need a field goal, a 3, or some free throws, Timmy D’s going to man up and take them.

            Interesting article here on clutch +/- since 2003. I couldn’t believe it, but Wade actually isn’t the most clutch player since 2003, his teammate Lebron James is. Who would have seen that coming?

            http://www.backpicks.com/2011/01/10/the-nbas-best-players-in-the-clutch-since-2003/

            Posted by Lochpster | April 6, 2012, 12:09 pm
  132. your an idiot

    Posted by brandon | April 4, 2012, 11:35 am
  133. this artical sucks, and the person who wrote it prob dosent even know how to dribble a basketball, KB24 for life, i dont care what yall say

    Posted by justin | April 5, 2012, 9:04 am
  134. How the argument changes when Lebron barely takes last second shots though.

    Posted by UN0 | April 5, 2012, 10:10 pm
  135. It seems to me, and I could be wrong, that the “percentages” don’t realistically prove anything. Here is why:

    1. There is too much human variable to talk about this purely from a numerical stand point. For instance, I disagree with saying that a shot taken with 20 or 13 or even 10 seconds left on the clock qualifies for a game winner UNLESS it is the final opportunity of the whole team for the game, not just the final shot one person took for that game, no matter its importance. We all know that even 10 seconds is a A LOT of time in the NBA to turn the game, let alone 24 seconds! What if in a tied game I make a bucket to bring my team ahead by two in final 24 but then they march down, drain the clock, and nail the go-head three to win? According to the criteria a “game-winner” is accounted to my stats, right?

    2. Lebron has not taken an equal number of “game winning shots” as Kobe, neither Kobe to Jordan, thus its not an equal comparison. Percentages are an average of a whole, like a fraction. If your sample size is smaller but both make the same number of game winning shots, it is only true that numerically one percentage is higher than the other. This is mathematical, not PROBABLE.

    3. All of the arguments, including the article, are ACTUALLY arguing probability, that is “So-and-So is more likely to make the game winning shot than…So, he is more clutch.” In response the article, whats not to say that Lebron will miss every single game-winning attempt for the rest of his career? Or that he never given the opportunity to take it? Or who can say that if Jordan had taken an equal number of game-winners as Kobe (7 more) that he would still have a close to 50% shooting percentage?
    Or, what if Kobe takes up to 30 in only his career and Kobe makes the final 5 to bring his percentage to 40%? Better yet, what if the “next Jordan” takes only five game winners in his career and makes four? Is he the most clutch ever?

    The simple fact of probability is that you need a large sample size. Take for instance a coin. Heads is as equally likely to show up in a coin flip as tails is (thats to say that anyone attempting a game winning shot is just as likely to make it as he is to miss it), for a probability of 1. You have only two options and each is as likely to occur than the other. Statistically, with a large enough sample size of coin flips, you get a fairly close 50/50 split. But when you look at the data its not evenly distributed heads-tails respectively, in a repetitive manner, such that head-tails alternates repeatedly. No, you have one “game winning shot” of heads, then a drought of “misses”, then a “game winner”, a “miss”, then a spree of “winners”. Depending on when you begin and end to measure will determine your “percentage”.

    Application: If Lebron or Kobe or Jordan only take 20 or 30 game winners over thier ENTIRE career you really do not have a large enough sample size to show “clutchness” simpley based on numbers. I would argue that you can only say who has made MORE THAN the other. You MAY be able to IF they all shoot the same number of game winners in fairly similar situations. Otherwise, there are too many human variables to take into consideration (was he wide open, how many defenders were on him when he shot, did they contest the shot, was he spinning, was he spinning away, was it a “go-to” move, was it a non-typical shot for that player, etc, etc, etc,..).

    Just wanted to throw my thoughts out there for everyone’s consideration. We may never know. Fact is though, Jordan is the measuring bar of all basketball greatness, whether you like it or not (I particularly don’t; I’m a Knicks fan since the 80′s :) ). So maybe we should just look at it as who has made more game-winners in their career.

    Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 7, 2012, 9:20 am
    • Or maybe we should look who has made more game-winners in an important playoff situation?

      Or maybe we should just look at who has missed more game-winners in their career to see who is the biggest choker in clutch situations?

      The fact is that the more attempts you take the more shots you will make. No one in the NBA history is even close to take as many GW shots as Kobe did.

      Percentage of makes counts. Why are you trying to discredit it?

      Posted by doosiolek | April 7, 2012, 1:46 pm
      • I see your point but what I am saying is that you can’t rely SOLEY on the percentages. You said “The fact is the more attempts you take the more shots you make” and thats not true. You equally as likely miss shots. Taking more shots doesn’t guarantee you will make more. That was part of my point. There is not guarantee that if MJ or LBJ take more shots that they will end up with a better percentage than Kobe.

        You could make the argument that Kobe has had to take the last shot because of the teams and times he’s played in. WIth Shaq he played in the NBA at a time when the West Conf alone was the most competitive the NBA has ever been, and that for the better part of ten years. Thats to say that its not easy to blow teams out, increasing the likelihood that there would be the need for someone to need to take a game winning shot. Realistically, when you look at the composition of teams and super stars during Jordan’s time teams had 1 super star. The bulls had 2, and then in their second run added the Worm (that’s three in my book). That was unheard of. LBJ has been playing in the East, which has improved significantly, but not until very recently. It has been a garbage conference for a while. There just wasn’t the need.

        Just because you miss doesn’t mean you choke. Choking would be rushing the shot, turning it over, or an air ball. A miss is a miss. Besides, he is the shooting guard and the best player on his team. What else is he suppose to do? Shooting the ball is part of the job description.

        Again, I am not discrediting the statistics just hoping to raise the thought that by them ALONE you can’t make an argument for who is the best closer. My self, I would be more afraid of seeing KJ or Kobe taking the final shot of an important game against my favorite team in the Playoffs than LBJ.

        Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 8, 2012, 3:30 pm
        • Sorry, “KJ” should be “MJ”. I’m not afraid of the current mayor of Sacramento taking the game winner. Ha!

          Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 8, 2012, 3:34 pm
        • Fully agreed that you can’t rely on percentages only, but I don’t agree that when I take a shot I have equal chances of making it or missing it. That may be true from purely mathematical point of view, but this is simply not true in “real life”.

          I’m pretty sure that if I was to play in the NBA and took 100 GWs then if I was lucky I would make 1 or 2 shots at best.

          Yet it is pretty obvious that a great player would make many more. That’s why when you compare MJ (9/18) and KB (7/25) it is rather clear who performed better.

          Looking at the stats outlined above I would not hesitate a moment to pick MJ over KB to take the game-winning shot. Would you?

          With LBJ it may be a bit more tricky as he is 5/12, but nonetheless I have a hard time believing that if he is to take 13 more attempts he will only make 2. Even from purely mathematical standpoint it is not very probable.

          So all in all while I agree %s is not the only factor, if the margin between 2 players is as big as between MJ & KB this factor alone suffices to say who is better when it comes down to playoff game-winners.

          Posted by doosiolek | April 9, 2012, 1:13 am
          • As to your trying to trump my “equally as likely” not being real life. Your right. According to their percentages all those guys are MORE LIKELY to MISS a GW than to make it in “real life”. That means that in “real life” LBJ is more likely to not make 2 more for the next 13. And there in is the point. You yourself agree that LBJ has not taken enough shots to compare with the rest. You have doubt because you have seen the last couple of playoff-choke performances of LBJ. So, you are not ready to clearly say “Yes, LBJ over KB”. I don’t care what you say. No one can predict the future. You don’t know that he will make any of those shots, I don’t know that he wont make those shots, and no one knows if he will have the OPPORTUNITY to take them. That said, my money is on KB.

            Yeah…no on is talking about YOU taking GW. We are ALL taking about the top professional athletes taking GW. Let me ask you a question, and please answer: Look at the time stamps of all the shots Kobe took and MJ took. Don’t you think its a little strange that the writer of this article includes GW that Kobe took in seconds 20, 12, 17, and 23 to factor percentages? C’mon! How can anyone call those GW and keep a straight face? I know, I know. The criterium of what a GW is was stated above. Nonetheless, This article MAY have a little, itty-bitty drop of bias in it. I think its more than clear that this blogger LOVES LBJ and HATES Kobe.

            And yes, like I said before: MJ, Kobe, then LBJ for the game winner. So there, you said it yourself – you would take Kobe over LBJ. You agree with others here that this article is not right. Kobe is a better closer than LBJ.

            There are a lot more variables, as I said in my original post. Many people feel this way. Read TMACATTACK post on this very website (http://chasing23.com/never-be-another-michael-jordan/). Ultimately we both agree that you can’t rely on numbers alone to make a concrete statement like “Blah-blah percentage, so see! Kobe is not the killer closer the NBA-sponsored-media makes him out to be!”

            Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 2:30 pm
  136. how many videos on youtube with Lebron hitting gamewinners? You cant find a video more than 2 minutes long

    Posted by edavis | April 8, 2012, 4:19 pm
    • Check out derrick fisher’s last game winner. Kobe got double teamed leaving Fisher wide open. Do stats account for that? Of course not. The point is that there are other factors involved that determine Kobe making or missing a gamewinner or even he takes the shot.How many times has kobe missed a gamewinner but was doubleteamed while taking the shot? Did he face a zone? Was his finger broken,etc. I would even ask the same of Lebron or Jordan. Why is Lebron a beast for 3 quarters and the least in the 4th? Is the defense making adjustments? It is easy to lie and manipulate with stats. Consider the poverty line. It hasnt been adjusted for inflation in years so technically many who should be below poverty line are not. Jordan Lebron or any other fans need to stop running to statistics to try to discredit Kobe.

      Posted by edavis | April 8, 2012, 4:34 pm
      • So you are implying that Jordan and Lebron have never drawn a double team to free up their teammates for open shots? Or that they were never double teamed on their shots? Jordan and Lebron both have faced zones. even though they were illegal in Jordan’s era, teams still ran them. I bet you think Jordan and Lebron got to shoot wide open layups on their GW attempts. “It is easy to lie and manipulate with stats.” Actually, the opposite is true. Regardless of situation surrounding the shots, these were the results. It is likely that these players faced the same circumstances.

        Posted by pointguard40 | April 9, 2012, 12:39 pm
        • never said they didn’t face the same situations. My point is that stats don’t tell the whole story especially with rule changes. Teams in Jordan’s time definitely tried to run zones but they could only hide them for so long. If its not easy to lie with stats then why are so many people fooled into believing the economy is doing well? This article is a great example of manipulating stats.

          Posted by edavis | April 15, 2012, 6:41 pm
          • This article doesn’t manipulate anything, it says given these circumstances (shot to take lead or tie, 24 seconds or less) these results were given. People are manipulating it after that point. Back to you talking about zones, they are a pathetic defense. If teams use them (which for most teams would be few if any possessions per game) its to cause confusion for a few possessions. It’s not a viable, sustainable defense. And for the record, I don’t know what you’re reading or where you live but all I know about the economy is that it still sucks. Don’t have any idea why you even brought that up but ok.

            Posted by pointguard40 | April 15, 2012, 7:09 pm
  137. judge whos more clutch from all games not just playoffs reg season is clutch as well i guess you cant count the game winners from kobe too many i do know that he has most game winning shots ever period so i leave u with that

    Posted by KB24 | April 8, 2012, 7:10 pm
  138. i see lots of excuses from kobe fans at the bottom of this article. including a fool who thinks that game winning regular season shots mean anything when it comes to playoff basketball. they mean the same thing that winning the MVP in the regular season and then not even making it to the NBA finals means.

    Posted by nightbladehunter | April 9, 2012, 7:04 am
    • So who would you take? Kobe or LBJ to take the last SHOT, not the final drive and dunk off a fast break, in a playoff game? Don’t criticize if you are not willing to unfurl your flag.

      BTW, your last statement has nothing to do with what we are talking about and in of itself is ludicrous.

      Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 2:36 pm
      • That’s absurd. A drive and a dunk is a shot. You seem to bizzarely think that only a jump shot should be “really” considered a GW shot.

        I’ll never get this “degree of difficulty” foolishness. This isn’t gymnastics or diving. ALL made FGs either count for 2 or 3 points regardless of how difficult or easy they are.

        Also, most of yout earlier questions have been answered in the first few dozen replies to the article.

        Posted by ks | April 9, 2012, 3:09 pm
        • NOOOOOOOOOOOO! Thats not what I am saying. I was being sarcastic, pointing out that Kobe is a better shooter than LBJ. And when was the last time you saw some one win a playoff game with a layup or dunk? C’mon, man!

          Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 4:23 pm
          • Btw, according to your logic of “a drive is a shot” (and I already knew that, but thanks), statistically you should have Shaq taking every final shot if he is on your team because he has the highest shooting percentage. See my point now?! There is more to statistics than big numbers verses small numbers.

            …really getting tired of responses in which people do not understand the arguments.

            Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 4:32 pm
          • I understand your argument. It’s rather simplistic and has little to do with stats. A variation of it has been posted and debunked here over and over again.

            Also, Kobe is not a better shooter than Lebron in general. He may be a better jump shooter.

            Also, didn’t Lebron win a playoff game vs the Wiz with a layup? I doubt he was the only one.

            In terms of your Shaq question, of course you would IF you can get that shot. A prime Shaq 5ft away from the basket vs a 20ft contested jumper? Are you kidding? The problem is that you couldn’t get that shot because teams would and did, correctly, double team him and force the lower percentage jump shot.

            Posted by ks | April 9, 2012, 5:01 pm
      • I would take Lebron over Kobe for a single shot in a game. Hes a better shooter despite what you believe.

        Posted by nightbladehunter | April 16, 2012, 7:36 am
  139. How about we fram the arguments this way: If the final shot needs to be a jump-shot attempt, who would you take?

    Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 2:32 pm
    • “Needs”? There’s only one circumstance where the last shot would “need” to be a jump shot – Down by 3 to tie. If that’s the case, I’m not taking Kobe nor Lebron. Give me Ray Allen.

      Posted by ks | April 9, 2012, 3:14 pm
      • “Needs” was to point out that we are ALL realistically talking about SHOOTING the ball for the win. Are you really going to sit there and tell me that LBJ is a better shooter than Kobe or Jordan?

        And if YOU would have read this article CAREFULLY, the writer is only comparing people who can “create their own shot”. I like Ray Allen’s shot as much as the next guy, but he doesn’t fit this criterion. Sorry.

        Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 4:56 pm
        • No, we are talking about shooting. You are talking about jump shooting only.

          My response wasn’t to the article. It was to your facile “needs” scenario. It’s not my problem if your scenario is obviously flawed.

          Posted by ks | April 9, 2012, 5:05 pm
          • Why the need to shift goalposts so much?

            In a game of horse, there’s little doubt Kobe would be superior to Lebron.

            In an honest to god NBA game situation where players can actually dribble, post up, and create their own shots, I’d take Lebron in a heartbeat over Kobe.

            There are a number of players I’d rather take before either in a one shot can’t pass situation. Kyrie Irving, Durant, Nash, Dirk, and Ray Allen would make the list. And if you discount Ray Allen even though he’s a legitimate answer to your question, I still take the other 4.

            And in a final possession game with a whole team on the court, which is what actually happens in the NBA, I’d take Nash and then probably Lebron.

            Posted by Lochpster | April 9, 2012, 6:53 pm
          • Go ahead, enjoy the fact that you got to use the word facile in an argument.

            How else are you suppose to take a shot if you don’t jump? Flat footed!? And you said so yourself (eg Shaq) that defenses are not going to allow you to waltz into the middle, sooooooo doesn’t that eliminate layups and dunks? Take away layups and dunks and your left with…

            I was merely reframing my argument differently to draw away from the cold “higher-vs-lower” number crunching so we would all realize that what we are actually arguing about is shooting the ball, not someones shooting percentage, and who we think is more likely to make it. No one is arguing about a layup off of blown defense but really about this scenario: Less than 10 seconds on the clock, star player has the ball and keeps it in his hand, makes a move or two and PULLS UP FOR THE SHOT (think Melo on Sunday night, or vintage Jordan). That’s what EVERYONE is talking about. Not numbers!!! So, would you still have LBJ in that situation over KB? I’m taking the guy who effortlessly dropped 81 and didn’t even play most of the fourth quarter. After MJ, give me Kobe. He’s a killer.

            The same year LBJ made that “game winning” layup against the Washington Juggernauts in the incomparable Eastern Conference he also took his team to the finals only to post a .35% SHOOTING Avg, 20% 3PT, and 69% from the charity stripe.
            http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_2007_finals.html

            And before anyone respond about Kobe in the same year take a look at his team (http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/LAL/2007.html) Its a miracle they even made it to the playoffs.

            As a previous poster noted, Kobe got the nick name and reputation because he HAS hit the most game winners, including 5 (I think) in one season! He gets the nick name from the entire season not just the playoffs, but whatever, I don’t care.

            Posted by KnickThruThickNThin | April 9, 2012, 7:55 pm
  140. ElGee put out a great series of articles on how little impact “clutch” shooting actually has on who wins basketball games. It looks like there’s very little correlation between outperforming expected wins and clutch shooting. Furthermore, as isolation basketball is the least efficient form of offensive set by a wide margin, a team is actually hurting itself by relying on a closer, no matter how talented he may be.

    More damning of the “clutchness” myth, the quarter with the most impact on the final point differential is the first, and the one with the least impact is the fourth.

    Hence, while we are expending a lot of emotional energy on who should take the last shot, clutch shooting really has very little impact on winning games when averaged out over seasons. Great teams can terrible clutch performers and vice versa.

    It turns out a field goal in the first quarter and a field goal in the fourth really are worth the same, after all. I’ll link his final article for those who are interested.

    http://www.backpicks.com/2012/03/23/the-crunch-time-myth-part-iii-overrating-closers-and-clutch-offense/

    Posted by Lochpster | April 9, 2012, 11:47 pm
  141. I would taken Lebron if he was made to shoot in the final seconds. I would take Lebron with 10 seconds left and the ball in his hands, to make the right play over Kobe. Lebron often passes in that situation because its the right play. But even when he shots in the playoffs he shots better then Kobe. I don’t understand how that can be disputed. Numbers don’t lie. You can’t do 2 +2 and come up with 4 and then say well 2 +2 isn’t 4.

    That is what the kobe “fans” are trying to do. They are saying pay no attention to the numbers, go off your gut. Which is the entire point of this article btw…its to break it down for numbers. Lebron has a better shooting % in the playoffs on GW shots then Kobe does. Simple period. Kobe has made 1 more on a crap ton more shots. Those are the facts, deal with them.

    Posted by nightbladehunter | April 10, 2012, 8:14 pm
  142. Your an idiot you just look at the stats and make your argument based upon that the only way you can judge clutch shots is by the eye test. The stats aren’t going to tell you how many times lebron drove and passed up shots and was dogged by the media. I use to be a Lebron fan so i remembered that all to clearly.Kobe is fearless and isn’t letting anyone steal the glory as being the man to close out the game. I’m sure when fisher hurry pau and artist hit game winners he was happy but really he wants that glory because he is the #1 option. The thing about going to the rim @ the end of the game is #1 you start off as a 1 on 1 which you want but when you get passed the defender the help comes decreasing the odds of making the shot. #2 You don’t want the refs to decide the game you want a clear shot without getting fouled because the ref may not blow the whistle to determine the game. #3 You don’t want to turn the ball over whether a strip charge or block under the rim. So this is why lebron will never be clutch until he has a consistent jump shot because so much can go wrong driving to the rim @ the end of the game. Im jus letting y’all know the real facts on how people who really know the game thinks.

    Posted by Birdman | May 2, 2012, 10:29 am
    • Is there a corollary between “really knowing the game” and sentence structure?

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 2, 2012, 7:26 pm
    • Enjoy Kobe being fearless as he shoots the Lakers out of the playoffs again just like he did last year when you got swept in the second round.

      Posted by nightbladehunter | May 3, 2012, 1:25 pm
      • What about how he shot the Lakers into the title in 2009 and 2010?

        Posted by Gil Meriken | May 7, 2012, 2:29 pm
        • He didn’t do that either of those years. Both those titles were very much a team effort. Especially with how poorly he shot in the 4th Q of game 7.

          But btw last night was a perfect example. Kobe took more shots then the rest of the LA starters combined. The result? A loss. In the Lakers wins the ball was passed around and everyone got their shots. But when Kobe tries to be the “hero” instead of making smart basketball plays he costs his team.

          Posted by nightbladehunter | May 9, 2012, 7:30 am
          • You can add in another miss for the most “clutch” shooter in the game.

            Posted by nightbladehunter | May 9, 2012, 7:32 am
          • i don’t understand why kobe is looked at as “clutch”
            when lebron hits insane shots like this to bring the team back everyone says he can’t make the last shot, and last night everyone disregarded kobe’s three misses within about 40 seconds to tie or take a lead. kobe is a great player but he is also a media creation of clutchness. Lebron is a media creation of “choke”

            Posted by GEE | May 9, 2012, 9:56 am
          • “But when Kobe tries to be the “hero” instead of making smart basketball plays he costs his team.”

            That’s funny! He costs his team so much, they win most of the time, and have won 5 titles with him as a leading contributor!

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 10, 2012, 1:47 pm
          • @Gil *2 titles with him as leading contributor

            Posted by pointguard40 | May 10, 2012, 8:36 pm
          • Gil, please reply to this post:

            Since you like to rank players by using rings and team wins, who do you blame for Games 5 and 6 against Denver? It’s gotta be Kobe, right? After all, when the Lakers win titles, you’re the one giving him almost ALL of the credit and not acknowledging any of his teammates. Hey, he uses his powers to MAKE them win, right? He MAKES Pau Gasol not shoot 1 for 10, right? He MAKES Andrew Bynum not sit on the bench by himself and pout during a team huddle, right? When the Lakers win, it’s all because of Kobe and he MAKES his teammates, but when they lose it’s everyone else’s fault right? When they win, it’s HIS 5 rings and HIS glory, but when they lose it’s a team sport again and Kobe needs more help to win, right?

            For me and all other objective fans, Kobe played great games in both games. Period. We don’t use team wins to tell you how someone played. But for you, the guy that assigns wins and team rings to a single player, I hope Kobe gets all of the blame from you for Games 5 and 6. It’s only fair.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 10, 2012, 10:16 pm
          • …and I’m sure if the Lakers win game 7, win another title, win another 10 titles, etc; you, Boyer, and Black Mamba will quit whining about Kobe’s lack of help, lack of coaching, and his teammates not choosing to play well (funny how Kobe only “wills” his teammate in Lakers WINS!) and give Kobe ALL of the credit for the rings. And tell everyone else how a single player’s greatness” is “all about the rings”.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 10, 2012, 10:31 pm
          • “a troll is someone who posts inflammatory,[2] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response[3] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion”
            -Wikipedia

            Please do not feed the trolls :)

            Posted by Lochpster | May 10, 2012, 10:39 pm
          • Hilarious listening to Kobe fans today. They bash LeBron for not “winning a ring”, but Kobe now “doesn’t have enough help”, “needs better/more passionate players”, “Kobe can’t win a ring by himself”, “It’s Bynum’s fault”, “It’s Gasol’s fault”, “It’s Mike Brown fault”, etc. Mind you, this is the same guy that they will gladly give all the credit of the ring to if the Lakers win.

            This fanbase has and always will be a joke.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 8:32 am
          • Difference is that Lebron has teams that were winning 60+ games in reg season.

            “No one wins alone”, Jordan with a bad cast won 42 games. He’s the best ever. So if you win 60, you’re getting some help.

            Whenever Kobe has been on a team that won 60+, they’ve won the title.

            You’re right Lochpster, let’s stop feeding these trolls.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 11:00 am
          • As usual, you don’t address the actual point.

            Gil/Kobe homers when the Lakers win: KOBE’s “win”, KOBE’s “ring”, only one player wins a championship and not a entire team, Kobe is better than ________ because KOBE has ______ more titles than __________.

            Gil/Kobe homers when the Lakers lose: not Kobe’s fault, Kobe needs more help, trade Kobe’s teammates, get a better coach, it’s a team sport, you can’t say MJ/John Havlichek/ is better than Kobe.

            You want to tell nightblade all about Kobe’s rings, but its a fact that some Kobe fans are the biggest flip-floppers in all of sports.

            You’re also the troll that Loch is talking about.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 11:58 am
          • So, where odes that place Tim Duncan, whose Spurs teams had two 60 win seasons and failed to capture the title?

            What about Kareem? His teams won 60+ twice and didn’t win.

            What about Larry Bird? The Celtics had 3 60+ win seasons when they didn’t take the crown.

            Magic had a 60+ win season and was came up empty?

            What are you trying to correlate there?

            That winning a few extra games against the Nets or the Raptors or a hapless Wizards team or beating up on the Hornets is what indicates individual greatness?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 11, 2012, 12:10 pm
          • Maybe you should take your own advice unrealist, and stop whining and making excuses for why the frozen one hasn’t won a ring. Whatever your complaints are, you and other lebron fans do the same thing, if not worse. And the leader of the team always gets the most credit for titles, which should be the case. This isn’t new to the nba. It’s the same thing in the nfl with brady, manning, or whoever, jeter in baseball, etc. If you want to whine about certain fans doing this the most, then you should be calling out jordan fans, they are by far the worse. They denigrate pippen so much just to elevate jordan’s status. Pippen gets blamed for not winning without jordan, but yet jordan was never had a winning season in his 5 years without pippen. So, enough of your silly ‘team’ rhetoric act, it’s getting old.

            And nobody blames lebron for not winning before 09. But, in 09 and 10, his team won 66 and 61 games, tops both years in the nba, and neither made even sniffed the finals. Then, all we’ve heard for 2 years now since he’s been with the heat is how dominant and awesome the heat are, and still nothing. And now the path to the finals this year is as easy as it’s ever been. The east is a joke right now, as it has been for years. If he’s going to win his 8 rings, he better get started.

            I think it’s pretty evident, unless you’re blind, as to how depleted the lakers current roster is around Kobe. Just look at last night. Bynum is a joke, you never know when he’s going to play hard, and Pau’s last 2 playoffs are pathetic. Mcgee and even Mozgov have outplayed Bynum for large stretches of the series. Faried is solid, but all he does is hustle, and he’s outplayed Pau. But, sure, it must be Kobe’s fault for the loss because he missed the team shootaround because he vomiting.

            Posted by boyer | May 11, 2012, 12:15 pm
          • Reading comprehension is not Boyer’s strength.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 11, 2012, 12:23 pm
          • Paulie, I just love watching Kobe fans make my own point for me with their posts.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 12:40 pm
          • Paulie Walnuts – exactly, that knocks Duncan, Magic, Bird, Dirk, Lebron, down for not being able to win it with enough help. Thank you for making that point for me. But only one of those hasn’t won it all at least once … so far.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 1:35 pm
          • Gil/Kobe homers when the Lakers win: When the Lakers win, Kobe led the way because he is awesome.

            Gil/Kobe homers when the Lakers lose:
            His teammates let him down/were injured, but Kobe is still awesome.

            Either way, Kobe is awesome. Not too hard to understand.

            For Lebron homers, there’s only been one side to the story : “When Cavs/Heat lose” … so far.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 1:38 pm
          • So Kobe is “awesome” whether or not his team loses, but LeBron’s “awesome”-ness depends on the Cavs/Heat winning games?

            Brilliant double-standard.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 2:38 pm
          • Lebron is awesome too regardless of whether his team wins or loses, but the fact that he hasn’t been able to go all the way with capable teams is an indicator that he is not as awesome as Kobe.

            If we were able to switch their teams magically, and put Kobe in his prime on last year’s Heat team, we’d be able to settle it. But we can’t. I think the Kobe-led Heat would win.

            If we could place Lebron on the 2010 team in Kobe’s stead, I don’t think the Lakers beat the Celtics in the Finals.

            Alas, we can’t do that, so we sit here arguing and internet argument.

            At the least, I have what actually resulted in team performance on my side. You have individual box score statistics.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 3:02 pm
          • “At the least, I have what actually resulted in team performance on my side.”

            And all that tells you is that one team outplayed the other. That’s it.

            Was Aaron Afflalo better than Kobe Bryant in game 5 of the Denver-LA series? Clearly the answer is yes, right?

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 3:38 pm
          • By the way, with regards your LBJ-Kobe comparison in your last post: one guy at least got to the Finals and won some games against the same team that swept the heavily-favored Lakers out of the playoffs.

            I would think that by your own logic you would graciously admit that LeBron outplayed Kobe, but instead you want to talk about their teammates and hypotheticals – not “what actually resulted in team performance”. Hmm…

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 3:54 pm
          • Was Arron Afflalo better in Game 5 than Kobe?

            No, but Andre Miller was. For a game.

            And Ty Lawson was pretty good in game 6.

            But I’m willing to bet that Kobe will show he’s better over a series by the end of game 7 – if the Lakers win.

            And yes, last season was not a good one for Mr. Bryant. But it was worse for Mr. James, given the team he had assembled for himself.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 4:57 pm
          • I didn’t ask about Lawson or Miller, just Afflalo. And given that he was the guy shouldering the Nuggets offense and the Nuggets actually won that game, Kobe logic should dictate tht Afflalo was better than Bryant in game 5.

            And how could Bryant have been better than James when James was the one playing games in June? And winning games against the Mavs? The same team that swept Bryant out of the playoffs?

            So…it’s not about who played better…and it’s not even about who “won” more either. Gotcha.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 5:31 pm
          • Here’s my argument, I cannot state it simpler than this.

            Replace Kobe with Lebron on last season’s Heat, and the Heat would have beaten the Mavs.

            Replace Lebron with Kobe on the 2010 Lakers, and the Laker would not have beaten the Celtics.

            I don’t see how you can “prove” me wrong on this point, it’s a bar argument, and Kobe has actually led a team to a championship.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 8:01 pm
          • Flip those players-

            Here’s my argument, I cannot state it simpler than this:

            Replace Lebron with Kobe on last season’s Heat, and the Heat would have beaten the Mavs.

            Replace Kobe with Lebron on the 2010 Lakers, and the Lakers would not have beaten the Celtics.

            I don’t see how you can “prove” me wrong on this point, it’s a bar argument, and Kobe has actually led a team to a championship.

            Posted by Gil Meriken | May 11, 2012, 8:03 pm
          • Unrealist, stop with this nonsense. Lebron didn’t play hard for the entire mavs series last year, and the heat still won 2 games and were close in the other games. His teammates didn’t fold and look lost like Pau, Odom, and Bynum did for the lakers last year. And this year is almost worse, maybe is. Odom played worse than most D-leaguers, Pau looks lost again, and Bynum doesn’t play hard all the time, or barely half the time, and the lakers have nothing beyond them. It should be blatantly obvious, even for you, that lebron had a much better cast around him last year and this year than Kobe has had.

            And if lebron was seriously injured like Kobe was last year, then he’d get a pass, but he wasn’t, and lebron isn’t old like kobe either, but rather in his prime. Kobe’s in his 15th and 16th nba seasons these past 2 years, and is putting up numbers that we’ve never seen from a player with that much mileage on him. Kobe doesn’t have the advantage of playing with a young Worthy and Magic, etc., like Kareem did, to cite one example. I can’t remember any other top 5 player in the league playing with another top 10 player and another top 15 player in the league, and all 3 were on their primes, which the heat have had the past 2 seasons. Since jordan’s bulls, lebron’s last few teams are by far the most talented teams the league has seen.

            Posted by boyer | May 11, 2012, 9:08 pm
          • I cannot agree that replacing Bryant with James on the Heat propels them over the Mavericks.

            The Lakers had a very good team with 57 wins, only one fewer than Miami and the Lakers got broomed by the Mavs.

            I see no evidence that a Kobe/James juxtopostion yields a 4 game swing.

            Further, the ONLY measure that Bryant has over any of Duncan, Bird, Johnson and Kareem is number of titles.

            How is it that in EVERY other measurable way Kobe is inferior, yet still superior?

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 11, 2012, 9:25 pm
          • There is no way in HELL that the Cavaliers were more talented than any of the Spurs, Lakers, Magic or Celtics from 2007-2009.

            That is just fantasy.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 11, 2012, 9:27 pm
          • Gil, you set your criteria for greatness (“team performance”), I tell you that LeBron’s team won more than Kobe’s team last year, and yet you STILL don’t want to give the man credit for having a better season.

            Enough already.

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 11, 2012, 11:50 pm
          • What Gil, of course, will NOT acknowledge in the differences between Kobe and Duncan, Bird, Magic, Kareem and Jordan (other than they were all better at nearly everything than Bryant) is how their teams got a LOT better once they joined the roster.

            Bucks before Kareem: 27-55
            Bucks after Kareem: 56-26
            In 1974-75 the Bucks finished 38-44 which included the 1-13 start without an injured Kareem.

            Spurs before Duncan: 20-62
            Spurs after Duncan: 56-26

            Celtics before Bird: 29-53
            Celtics After Bird: 61-21

            Bulls before Jordan: 27-55
            Bulls after Jordan: 38-44

            Lakers before Magic: 47-35
            Lakers after Magic: 60-22

            Cavaliers before James: 17-65
            Cavaliers after James: 35-47
            Cavs after James left: 19-63

            Lakers before Kobe: 53-29
            Lakers after Kobe: 56-26

            Kobe improved the Lakers by a whole 3 games and I really think that his 15.5 minutes per game hardly matched the OTHER newest Laker, Shaq.

            Just in case you can’t figure it out, I will give you the number of games each team improved.

            Kareem +29
            Duncan +36
            Bird +32
            Magic +13
            Jordan +11
            James +18
            Bryant +3

            You really think that Bryant had the same impact as the other players? There seems to be little evidence that Kobe was the sole reason or even the biggest reason, unlike the others listed.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 12, 2012, 9:18 am
          • Nevermind the wins and losses, Paulie. Gil can’t even stick to THAT flawed argument when it’s not in his favor – he’ll bring up “what if” scenarios instead. It’s simply disingenuous.

            (Sidenote: I think you could replace Kobe on the 00-02 Lakers with James, Jordan, Bird, Magic, Duncan, Durant, Nash, name your star player – I think they would win those rings. AND they would keep Shaq in town to win more.)

            Posted by The Realist #2 | May 12, 2012, 9:58 am
          • I absolutely agree with that. I have even written the same thing. Can you imagine a 19 year old Lebron joining the Lakers at the same time as the 24 year old and hungry Shaq??? Five rings would be easily achievable.

            Further, I have also used the juxtaposition with the 1999-2002 Lakers and you could easily trade Kobe with the other teams top player(Miller, Iverson, Kidd) and the Lakers still win. Trade Shaq for Smits, Mutombo, Kenyon Martin (or Todd McCullough) and the other team wins. And easily.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 12, 2012, 10:45 am
          • Um Paulie, you cant improve a whole lot on a 53 win season as opposed to a 17 win season. Not much wiggle room there.
            Not that it really matters. Kobe didn’t have much of an impact.

            Posted by William | May 12, 2012, 12:34 pm
          • William, that is my point.

            Kobe didn’t take a rag tag franchise from the ashes to the promised land. The Lakers were already a good team with a good core in place.

            The Cavs were wretched when James joined them, and are wretched again that he is gone.

            If the case is being made that Bryant has this magical impact to elevate otherwise also-rans, the evidence is escaping me.

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 12, 2012, 12:47 pm
          • Boyer, you claim Bosh is a top 15 guy? I’m gonna name 24 guys I think are probably better than Bosh. Let me know which ten of them you’d take Bosh over.

            Lebron, Wade, Bryant, Paul, Howard, Durant, Rose, Love, Westbrook, Deron Williams, Parker, Rondo, Lamarcus Aldridge, Dirk, Nash (there’s 15 already), Blake Griffin, Pau Gasol, James Harden, Andrew Bynum, Tyson Chandler, Josh Smith, Manu Ginobili, Tim Duncan, Zach Randolph.

            Posted by Lochpster | May 12, 2012, 7:50 pm
          • You may as well add Garnett to that list

            Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 12, 2012, 8:41 pm
  143. Your logic is most definitely in favor of the queen of Miami. LEBron has no go to shot except miracle 3 pointers off the glass or layups. If Kobe bulled his way to the hoop committing as many offensive should be fouls as LEBron he would have a better %. Ask the Milwaukee bucks, spurs, clippers, raptors, blazers, suns, heat, magic etc etc who is more clutch! Kobe has murdered them in the final seconds over and over. My case is this: LEBron will never has the tough mental part of the game. He is a marshmallow. The only way you can compare him to kobe. On this is because he wont take a game winning shot in fear of missing. He wouldn’t do it in a damn Allstar game!! LEBron is not even the first option on his team! Don’t compare kobe to LEBron. And technically speaking a shot for the gmc winner is usually a jump shot. So let’s compare. If you take out the layups and only compare jump shots lechoke is 1/8, that is 12.5%. So kobe has a 16% advantage. Kobe is so highly regarded by opposing coaches he has double and triple teams on him and no chance for a layup. Lebrick James runs OVER defenders and charges them for his shot… but no whistle because he is the golden child. Bottom line… come see me in 5 soon to be 6 championships.

    Posted by Bryan | May 9, 2012, 11:08 pm
    • I never thought that logic could actually choose a side.

      Posted by Paulie Walnuts | May 9, 2012, 11:23 pm
    • If Lebron has now shot how come he has a better FG% and better PER then Kobe(and everyone else for that matter) his regular season this year ranks as one of the best ever in those stats. He is going to win his 3rd MVP. But he has no shot. Whatever. Not even sure why I bothered to respond to the complete lack of logic in those post. You sir just showed the entire reason this site was created. You know for fans that don’t have a lack of brain power like yourself.

      Posted by nightbladehunter | May 11, 2012, 6:31 am