Pippen states LeBron may be the greatest ever

[J.T.]

I'm sure this will ruffle a lot of feathers, especially considering the title of the this site, but Scottie Pippen just stated on ESPN that "Michael Jordan is probably the greatest scorer to play the game, but I may go as far as to say LeBron James may be the greatest player to ever play the game..."

Wait....WHAT????!!!!!!?????

Maybe Scottie just means that he has an opportunity to be the greatest. As much as it hurts me to say it, in that regard he's absolutely correct. However he talks about James' ability to control the game at both ends of the floor, presumably MORE than Jordan did. I just don't want to misinterpret Scottie's meaning, but I'm certain he's leaning more on Lebron's upside, the guy's only 26 so there's room as scary as that seems, and I believe everyone with eyes can see that he has unlimited potential and he hasn't quite put it all together yet. The thing that disappoints me about him is the fact that he thought he NEEDED Wade and Bosh to win a title. He didn't. Pippen states that "No guy on the basketball court is not a threat to score with LeBron James out there." Sure, that's very easy to say when you just observed it first-hand from the Bull bench. I just don't think he remember that there are 2 other All Stars and 3 other guys from Team USA on Lebron's team as well.

I remember debating recently about Kobe's overall place in history and a guy brought up the transcendence of a player making a guy an all-time great. I don't believe this to be the criteria because there are only a handful of guys that can be called transcendent. LeBron is the greatest coalescence of physicality and talent the league has seen since Magic and he has absolutely no excuse to be the next transcendent player. I'm sorry Scottie, Lebron is a great player, but the greatest? I just don't see it...yet.

[Milhouse]

Just saw them discussing the comments on Outside the Lines. It sure sounded like he said he thought he was the best to ever play the game but it may have been taken out of context because they didn't play any of the interview beyond that comment. So I would assume that he probably meant it in the context of what the Heat may be potentially on the brink of (i.e multiple championships). At the same time, he's a once in a lifetime freak athlete who almost averages a triple double for his career so far. So it's possible he really meant he thinks he's the best to ever play the game?

[lochpster]

I think it's an interesting point Scottie made-Lebron may be better than MJ when all is said and done. As far as I'm concerned, MJ was the best scoring guard ever, as good a defensive player as has ever played at his position, and the greatest winner of the modern era, by which I mean that he always reached and frequently exceeded what his team should have done given their roster and opponent while never underachieving (NBA Realist's concent of winnability, more or less). Lebron's not the scorer MJ was, but his entire offensive repertoire makes him the only guard ever to be in MJ's statistical ballpark, and defensively he's turned into a top-notch stopper in his own right. As much flak as James gets for not being a winner, the only two blotches on his winning resume are losing to very good Boston and Orlando teams the past 2 years, and I'm not convinced that Boston team with 3 1/2 future Hall of Famers wasn't better than Lebron's Cavs anyway. Of course, now Lebron has All-Star caliber teammates, so to compare to MJ he's going to have to win the NBA title basically every year as long as the current group is together. But lest we forget, Lebron's still 2 years younger than MJ was when he won his first title-he's got a lot of career left and a lot of individual growth as a player left. IF Lebron's Heat dominate the league for the next 6-8 years and win multiple titles, and IF James continues to produce at his current level, there could be a legit case for Lebron vs MJ. Of course, the entire discussion is based on speculation and is way ahead of itself, but Lebron is the only player since MJ retired who, at this point in his career, is talented enough to even be in the discussion.

Of course, Scottie's long been jealous of MJ's stature and success and probably just meant it as a backhand slap to MJ.

[The NBA Realist]

Lochpster: I completely agree with everything that you said and I think you hit on the most salient point of all in that Pippen said that Lebron MAY be greater than Jordan - not that he WILL be greater, or already IS greater, but that he MAY be greater when all is said and done. And for as big of a Michael Jordan fan as I am, I have to acknowledge that the possibility does exist.

From a Winnability standpoint, I actually agree with you in that the 2 black marks on Lebron's resume can both be justified:

1.) Lebron actually overachieved with both the 2009 and 2010 Cavs, and just because they had home court advantage, did not mean that they were necessarily the better team. If that were the case, we should villify Derrick Rose for losing to the Heat in 2011.

2.) The 2010 Celtics were in fact a better team that suffered injuries throughout the regular season which explains their regular season record. In my opinion, Lebon's Cavs simply lost to the better team.

3.) While I believe that the 2009 Orlando Magic were not as good as the 2009 Cavs, Lebron did anything and everything possible to win that series. In fact, over the 6 game span, he averaged 39 points, 8 rebounds, 8 assists and had a TS% of 63% and it was arguably the greatest performance EVER in a losing effort. His teammates simply let him down.

From a talent/skills/ability standpoint, he is right up there with MJ.

He is also comparable from a statistical standpoint.

He has been the best player in the league since 2009 and some may even argue since 2008. So he has a chance to match Jordan's 9 years of dominance as the best in the league.

He has also won 2 MVPs and there is no reason to believe that he could not match MJ's 5.

Lastly, his impact on the game may not fully be determined until he retires, but who is to say that a 6'8 athletic freak couldn't change the way the game is played?

The only major difference is in their performance in big games. Jordan rarely failed and was lights out. Lebron has certainly had his share of disappointments.

Regardless, there is definitely a possibility of a discussion down the road.

[Milhouse]

Pippen tweeted a followup to his comments yesterday: "Don't get me wrong, MJ was and is the greatest. But LeBron could by all means get to his level someday." So pretty much what we thought that MJ is the greatest but Lebron might be at that level or higher someday.

[tjhunt76]

There will never be another Michael Jordan. I wish people would stop looking for him. That's like looking for the next Michael Jackson. Or the Beatles. The complexities of what MJ so great goes beyond the numbers he posted, but I'll start with it for the stat geeks out there.

Scoring
MJ has a decisive edge. He scored more points and he did it more efficiently. Wanna know how impressive that is? It's like me being able to juggle six balls better than you can juggle four.

Assists
Jordan had excellent court awareness. People are so blinded by his scoring ability, they didn't catch that. Is it better than Lebron's? I don't know, but it's arguable. Jordan had a season averaging 8 assists per game (at the same time he was averaging 33 ppg, by the way). If you look at the cumulative stats through the age of 26 for both players (http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoopmiam...-the-stats-say), Lebron has a 7 to 6 edge in apg in the regular season and is in a virtual tie (7.0 to 6.7) in the playoffs. Consider that MJ outscores Lebron by 5 points per game in the regular season and 7 points per game in the playoffs and you may consider Jordan the much better all around player offensively. My point is, it's harder to average 33 and 6 (on much higher efficiency) than 28 and 7. In the playoffs, the discrepancy widens. Jordan averaged 36 and 7 (again, on much higher efficiency) while Lebron averages 29 and 7. Who's the better all-around player again??? Soon after this, MJ yielded a lot of playmaking duties to Pippen as he grew into a superstar player. Add in the fact that MJ was playing in the triangle offense (which is great because it keeps everyone involved, but it does limit a superstar's stats). Allowing Pippen a chance to grow decreased his ability to rack up assists, but ultimately made the Bulls a better team. There is no stat to measure this.

Rebounds
Did you know that MJ averaged more offensive rebounds per game over his 1072 game career than Lebron has over any season except for one? In fact, MJ averaged more offensive rebounds during the 3 years he played with Dennis Rodman than any 3 year stretch of Lebron's career. MJ always prided himself on being a glue guy, someone that filled in the gaps of what the team needed. There was no reason for him to sit back and grab defensive rebounds when playing with Charles Oakley, Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen, Horace Grant, Jasan Caffrey, etc. It takes positioning to get defensive rebounds. It takes desire to steal rebounds from the other team. And MJ did this better than Lebron ever has, even with all-time rebounders on his team.

Steals
Jordan led the league 3 times and has more steals than anybody in NBA history not named John Stockton.

Blocks
Right now, Lebron has the edge. We'll see how this turns out over the next 400 games or so.

Turnovers
MJ 2.7 per game. LJ 3.3 per game

Defense
I hope we can all agree that MJ was a superior defender. Lebron's a good defender. MJ was great.

Off the ball
Michael was leagues better than Lebron with his off the ball movement. It's precisely why Jordan was just as deadly with or without the ball. Lebron needs the ball to dominate, Jordan didn't. When stat heads can come up with a good way to measure the impact of having a superstar player be dominant without having to dominate the ball, then I'll put more trust in the numbers. Jordan put up more impressive stats in the 80's, but he was a better player in the early 90's because he didn't need to dominate the ball to dominate the game. Stats won't show this. Watch the games. This is why I hate when comparisons are boiled down to stats. Stats hide as much as they reveal.

What about the intangibles? We saw Jordan win. And then keep winning. He won so easily that we forget how hard it is to do that. 6 titles and total domination in an 8-10 year span? This is a huge ACCOMPLISHMENT. You don't just go out and win 6 titles in the way that Jordan did it. We haven't seen Lebron win yet. What happens when/if he does? Does he relax? Does he continue to push his team even when they are all satisfied? How does he deal with that bulleye on his back for the next 7 years? Don't let MJ fool you. It gets harder AFTER you win the first time. Let's look at Jordan's career. Look at him in 1988. Does he look like the same player in 1992? What about 1997? You can look at Jordan's career and swear you're seeing 3-4 different players. Think that was by coincidence? The post game that was so dominant in 1996? You saw him working on that in 1990. He was ahead of the curve. Why is that important? Because he was able to maintain top flight production and efficiency even as the game changed. What might have been effective against him in 1988 was not as effective in 1992. The type of defenders that gave him problems in 1992 did not bother him as much in 1997. That's how he was so damn good for so long. I remember him saying he wanted to shave his head before people started noticing and talking about his receding hairline. Well, he did the same thing with his game. You didn't notice much drop off because his game was so fluid and ever-changing. If he was a more efficient jump shooter, it was because he was adding to his game, right? Yes and no. Look at him in 1988 or 1989 then look at him in 1992. If you're paying attention you'll notice a slight drop off in athleticsm. You didn't notice that at the time because he was working on that jumpshot WHEN HE DIDN'T NEED TO. So by the time it became his number one weapon, you didn't notice the drop off in athleticism. Ahead of the curve. He worked on his postgame, jumpshot, off-the-ball movement when he was still by far the most dominant player in the world. Is Lebron ahead of the curve (still not much of a postgame 8 years into his career. Hmm...)? Even if you think so, will he STAY ahead of the curve after he starts winning?

Mj was so competitive he was borderline crazy. While Lebron is dancing on the sidelines, MJ would be fabricating stories of how the Clippers coach said something negative about him, or the opposing 2-guard thinks someone is better or the GM said someone else was better. And then he would DESTROY that team. It was all about having a mental edge. Even in some December game against Phoenix. If anyone was more competitive, they would have imploded long before getting to the NBA. Anyone less competitive wouldn't be as good.

I won't truly believe Lebron is in the conversation until teams are afraid of pissing him off. Until I see him kicking his team in the ass because they're slacking two championships in. Until he is just as dominant after he leaves his physical prime. Until I hear his coaches say he's the best practice player they've ever seen. When people make legitimate comparisons to Michael Jordan and it is about more than what numbers he posts, THEN we can have a decent conversation.

[Milhouse]

Good post tj. If nothing else these types of comparisons make for interesting conversation. I think it's just too soon to tell, but if you think it's bad now just wait till they win it all in a couple of weeks. It'll be out of control at that point and probably continue to be every year especially if they win multiple titles.

[coolsig5]

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Lebron James is better than Michael Jordan but the theory is interesting. Just by looking at fact's Lebron could very possibly make a case for greatest player of all time. And remember he is getting even better as we have seen in the second half of this season. Learning to share the ball and move off-ball, he had some instances of a post up game and he's shooting jump shot's better than ever before. So let's look at a few hypothetical possibilities.

‎1. Lebron James passed 16,000 points this season in less than 600 games
2. By the end of the 2012-13 season james should be sitting at 22,000 points
3. If lebron plays the next 7 seasons at 85% of what he has done he will be at 30,000 points 7,500 assists and 7,500 rebounds at 32. couple months older than kobe
4. Lebron James is one of 4 or 5 players to average 28 ppg 7 rpg and 7 apg in a season and he has done it 4 times, almost 5 this season at 26.7 ppg

Knowing this and knowing he could play till he's 35-38 probably he could possibly be the all-time leading scorer. (Possibly although not likely) and put him in a great spot to be discussed as the greatest player of all time as long as he win's his fair share of rings

[tjhunt76]

Don't get me wrong I am not saying Lebron James is better than Michael Jordan but the theory is interesting. Just by looking at fact's Lebron could very possibly make a case for greatest player of all time. And remember he is getting even better as we have seen in the second half of this season. Learning to share the ball and move off-ball, he had some instances of a post up game and he's shooting jump shot's better than ever before. So let's look at a few hypothetical possibilities.

‎1. Lebron James passed 16,000 points this season in less than 600 games
2. By the end of the 2012-13 season james should be sitting at 22,000 points
3. If lebron plays the next 7 seasons at 85% of what he has done he will be at 30,000 points 7,500 assists and 7,500 rebounds at 32. couple months older than kobe
4. Lebron James is one of 4 or 5 players to average 28 ppg 7 rpg and 7 apg in a season and he has done it 4 times, almost 5 this season at 26.7 ppg

Knowing this and knowing he could play till he's 35-38 probably he could possibly be the all-time leading scorer. (Possibly although not likely) and put him in a great spot to be discussed as the greatest player of all time as long as he win's his fair share of rings

Looks like you're saying Lebron could have the better career, which is different than saying he's a better player. Lebron right now is in his prime. Either he's better than Jordan or he's not...and right now, he's not. He *may* have a better career (I doubt it, but as long as he's playing, it's possible), but chances are he won't be a better player than he is right now so I doubt he'll ever surpass Michael Jordan.

[coolsig5]

I'm not trying to say he is better than Michael was. I'm simply implying that by the end of his career if you compare the two Lebron James could possibly have a better career line. Simple enough. If Lebron does actually have a better stat line and win's a few championships then there will be multiple debate's all over the place about his place in the history of the game and whether he would be the "GOAT". Whether he is better than Michael is up to opinion somewhat like the debate between Magic Johnson and Michael or Magic and Larry Bird back in the day.